Overloading

[Drover]

Thats about what I guestimated @Smergen , I thought all up of 2.6t for van would probably keep me within the limits but no great planning went into it, just the wet finger held up to the wind.............

 

[davemc]

So we looking to see upgrading the Disco to a 7 seater which can tow 3000kgs
Now correct me if I am wrong the Tare of the tug is without fuel and you add on the towball weight to the payload correct?
Our Towball 280 and add 80 litres Diesel 70kgs. so 350kgs

You look at Tare, GVM . add the 350kgs
D3 2486 , 3230 have 390kgs payload left after fuel.
Mux 2060, 2750 leaves 360kg .. 15l already in tank at Tare add 50kg fuel
Coloradoo7 2205, 2820, around 295kgs left for payload
Fortuner 2135, 2759 Around 265kgs left
Everest 2407, 3100 around 343kgs left
200 series 2630, 3350 around 370kg left

You need to drop the towball down a bit to load the tug up.. Or am I missing something? And all of these have 300kg TBM apart from the Disco/cruiser 350kg.

 

[Smergen]

So basically once you've added your tribe you're basically out of room?

 

[davemc]

So basically once you've added your tribe you're basically out of room?

or just me ha ha
Was reading this regarding the Everest and said with a fully loaded van your left with just over 100kilos
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-news/2015-ford-everest-can-it-really-tow-3000kg/

So for our 2800 almost van we should be towing with something that has 3500 which basically leaves us with Disco or Cruiser.
Might be keeping the D3 for a while longer

 

[Crusty181]

So we looking to see upgrading the Disco to a 7 seater which can tow 3000kgs
Now correct me if I am wrong the Tare of the tug is without fuel and you add on the towball weight to the payload correct?
Our Towball 280 and add 80 litres Diesel 70kgs. so 350kgs

You look at Tare, GVM . add the 350kgs
D3 2486 , 3230 have 390kgs payload left after fuel.
Mux 2168, 2750 leaves 232kg do not think we make it
Coloradoo7 2205, 2820, around 295kgs left for payload
Fortuner 2135, 2759 Around 265kgs left
Everest 2407, 3100 around 343kgs left
200 series 2630, 3350 around 370kg left

You need to drop the towball down a bit to load the tug up.. Or am I missing something? And all of these have 300kg TBM apart from the Disco/cruiser 350kg.

Bit of a mine field, hey Dave. The vans ball weight is part of your cars GVM, as is everything attached to the car including the kids, iPads, phone chargers and those McDonalds chips under the seat. And yes you have drop the ball weight on the car to load the car up with extra goodies, plus when you load up the car, the cars max ball weight drops as well ... youll need a retired professor to work it all out.

In my frantic research I found a conflicting kerb weight meanings, some so called experts say it includes a small amount of fuel, others half a tank, others empty. The kerb weight is set by the manufacturer.

My first response was to look at a bigger car that can tow more, but considering what I need that wont help because I already have the van and the van isn't the issue, its the ability to carry more in the car I need. In your case, the vans 2800 so a car that can tow 3500kg is of no value because your van will stay 2800kg, and the 3500kg tow car can still only carry 600kg.

My Jaycos payload is 100kg more than a standard Jayco, and Im struggling but thats a separate issue. My car was basically 250kg overloaded just with us in it. A Landcruiser can certainly tow more, but I dont have more to tow ... I need to be able to put more in the car and the Landcruiser's carrying capacity is 300 less than the Navara, so an upgrade would in fact be a downgrade. Short of an F250, the twin cab utes are the only obvious way to gain carrying capacity because the have around 300kg more payload, but that's no use to you guys

Once you do the sums, and try to juggle the bare minimum of loads in the van and the car, its painfully obvious that there would be very few van/var combos getting around that are under weight ... especially those big vans towed by Landcruiser's with bullbars, HD suspension, winches and roof racks loaded with boats and all manner of other stuff.

 

[Drover]

Well said @Crusty181.
Don't forget you have to add the weight of the tow bar and WDH to it as well which would probably mean you can hook up but not sit in the vehicle.

 

[Crusty181]

So basically once you've added your tribe you're basically out of room?

That was my shock discovery ... but even more shocking was the amount I was over

 

[Crusty181]

Well said @Crusty181.
Don't forget you have to add the weight of the tow bar and WDH to it as well which would probably mean you can hook up but not sit in the vehicle.

Spot on @Drover, and that giant V1 hitch knuckle and WDH bars weighs heaps as well ... and the choice to use them would come at the expense of other payload goodies

My overall GCM was right on the limit, the vans ATM was right on its limit, ball weight right on the cars limit and the car GVM was right on its limit .... all great until you attach them together, which is where everything goes pear shaped.

The van ATM stays 3.0t despite taking 300kg of ball weight off the 3.0t van ATM and putting that on the car. The car is now 300kg over without having any effect on the vans ATM, and the cars previous happy ball weight now exceeds its newly reduced max because the max car ball weight now reduces due to the overloading .... but the GCM is still ok. Ha ..... errrrrrr ......$hit ... confused? I was

 

[Where to next]

I did the exercise when I purchase my expanda. It is very confusing. The data below is what I came up with when working it all out.

MUX unloaded- 2060kg. (Supposedly with 15 litres of fuel)
Add full tank of diesel- 50kg (MUX only has a fuel tank capacity of 65 litres)
Expanda ball weight- 240kg (This seems to be the max on average when loaded)
Total of above- 2350kg
Less allowed- 2750 kg (GVM of MUX)
Leaving me 400kg for family of 6 and 4 bikes on the roof of the car.
The bikes weigh around 60-65kg, family combined weigh about 250kg.
Add another 30kg for all the crap the kids like to have in the car when we travel
On all the calculations above I have about 50kg left to play with.
My kids are young and will only get heavier as they get older. Might have to ask them to stop growing, that will work.

I do have a question though which someone else might be able to answer. According to the specs of the MUX (I am sure this issue would be with other vehicle makes as well)

Max tow capacity- 3000kg
Max allowed vehicle mass inc. occupancy etc. 2750kg
Total allowed combined mass- 5750kg

My question is how does the ball weight of the caravan work in all that. If you are towing the allowed 3000kg (which technically has the ball weight included of say 240kg) and your car weighs 2750kg, then in my understanding my max tow capacity is not 3000kg. It is actually 3000kg less the ball weight of 240kg, bringing it down to 2760kg to ensure I keep below the allowed max weights, but that would then have me 240kg below the allowed GCM of 5750kg. (I hope I have not confused you all)

So in conclusion have the manufacturers forgotten to include the ball weight capacity in the GCM calculations?

 

[Crusty181]

I did the exercise when I purchase my expanda. It is very confusing. The data below is what I came up with when working it all out.

MUX unloaded- 2060kg. (Supposedly with 15 litres of fuel)
Add full tank of diesel- 50kg (MUX only has a fuel tank capacity of 65 litres)
Expanda ball weight- 240kg (This seems to be the max on average when loaded)
Total of above- 2350kg
Less allowed- 2750 kg (GVM of MUX)
Leaving me 400kg for family of 6 and 4 bikes on the roof of the car.
The bikes weigh around 60-65kg, family combined weigh about 250kg.
Add another 30kg for all the crap the kids like to have in the car when we travel
On all the calculations above I have about 50kg left to play with.
My kids are young and will only get heavier as they get older. Might have to ask them to stop growing, that will work.

I do have a question though which someone else might be able to answer. According to the specs of the MUX (I am sure this issue would be with other vehicle makes as well)

Max tow capacity- 3000kg
Max allowed vehicle mass inc. occupancy etc. 2750kg
Total allowed combined mass- 5750kg

My question is how does the ball weight of the caravan work in all that. If you are towing the allowed 3000kg (which technically has the ball weight included of say 240kg) and your car weighs 2750kg, then in my understanding my max tow capacity is not 3000kg. It is actually 3000kg less the ball weight of 240kg, bringing it down to 2760kg to ensure I keep below the allowed max weights, but that would then have me 240kg below the allowed GCM of 5750kg. (I hope I have not confused you all)

So in conclusion have the manufacturers forgotten to include the ball weight capacity in the GCM calculations?

@Where to next, in relation to the weight of the van and car individually, the ball weight can transfer from the van to the car, but then the cars overall GVM will dictate by how much, and by what extent you need to reduce your cars payload to accommodate that ball weight. So because of the cars limits you can unfortunately end up with the full ball weight less than your GCM by keeping the van and car individually legal.

All this is because we are all close to the limits of both our cars and vans. It was exactly my dilemma in that the car and van individually were fine, but together they caused each other the issues whilst still remaining under the GCM

 

[davemc]

@Where to next first off how are you finding the Mux what model did you get 4x4 or 4x2.. how does it tow, fuel and the small tank does it don't be rude you off $35k for the bottom rang 4x2 interests me we never go more then dirt tracks.

Interesting I had a Tare of the MUX 100kgs more then what you have from another article on tow weights.
Seems depends on model and accessories what you get which makes sense.
I updated the table above which looks better now for Mux We still be pushing although close..
Be interesting to know real world for Colorado7 @Pace do you have plate figures.

Us well I am over 100kgs and Sarah.. he he all up we be pushing 330kgs with 4 kids. Which leaves 60kgs for ipads, crap plus maccas chips under the seats thanks @Crusty181

The Mux if your GVM and GCM figures are correct has the extra 3000kgs in the figures from 2750 - 5750.

If you read that article about the Ford Everest if the van is fully loaded they say you loose off the payload. Seems the same with a number of new utes as well..
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-news/2015-ford-everest-can-it-really-tow-3000kg/
the GVM 3100 and GCM 5900. 2800 difference if loaded.. So if you tow at 3000 you have 2900 GVM not the 3100.
Which brought the Titanium Down to 405 payload minus 300kg TBM is 105kilos left

Does the 300kgs TBM transfer off the van to the car? The above article does not point to it.
Maths normally my strong fit.. this get confusing.

 

[Where to next]

@Where to next first off how are you finding the Mux what model did you get 4x4 or 4x2.. how does it tow, fuel and the small tank does it don't be rude you off $35k for the bottom rang 4x2 interests me we never go more then dirt tracks.

Interesting I had a Tare of the MUX 100kgs more then what you have from another article on tow weights.
Seems depends on model and accessories what you get which makes sense.
I updated the table above which looks better now for Mux We still be pushing although close..

@davemc I have the LST 4x4. The 4x4 has a has an extra 100kg of payload compared to the 4x2. I am happy with the car. My van would be about 2850kg all loaded. You know it is there when going up steep hills, but with that much weight behind you what car wouldn't. On the flats it cruises nicely just like it would if you were not towing anything. The economy is about the best you would get out of any vehicle. Around town when not towing I am getting the low to mid 8 litres per 100km's, so the small 65 litre tank is not an issue. When towing however I certainly would prefer a larger tank. When towing through flatter countryside I would be in the 14 and 1/2ish per 100km's per litre, on a hillier run I would be in the 16's per 100km's.

So yes for towing I would say that the small tank is a pain the you know what. If travelling in more remote areas there is no doubt you would have to have a gerry can on board. The rear suspension is a bit soft, but the WDH obviously helps, could not go without it.

All in all bang for your buck it is a great option. If upgrading I would certainly consider another one.

 

[davemc]

thanks @Where to next so our van around the same weight 16's be good we get 22's towing and around town 20's stop/start school runs.
There is a new long range tank out now I was told that does not replace the spare underneath. under $2k installed the dealer said.
Yes extra GVM with the 4x4 although you eat into it with the extra weight of the 4x4 system which sort of balances things out.
Looking on the Isuzu website the bottom of range LXM 4x2 750 payload. LXT 4x4 690 payload.
Sarah likes the LST although around $50k gets up there in $'s

I think we take them all for a drive see what works.
Compared to the D3 all four we looking at are missing some of the extras the almost 10 year old Land Rover has
One of my main annoyances is the 60/40 rear sear splits on the drivers side, we always need to put one kid in the back. To have the split road side is not overly safe I understand its not made for our market.. Just bugs me. We need to see if they fit three car seats across the back as well as only the Everest has anchor points in the 3rd row. Again the Disco does
Although I hope all of them do not cost us what the Disco does when things go wrong.. Holden comes with 5 years free servicing at the moment.

 

[Where to next]

@Where to next, in relation to the weight of the van and car individually, the ball weight can transfer from the van to the car, but then the cars overall GVM will dictate by how much, and by what extent you need to reduce your cars payload to accommodate that ball weight. So because of the cars limits you can unfortunately end up with the full ball weight less than your GCM by keeping the van and car individually legal.

Hey @Crusty181 thanks for clarifying what the car manufacturers have made confusing. To make it clearer to us average punters they should quote the 'Gross Combination weight' in my case 5750kg's as they already have, but extend that information further to state that the allowed 'Gross Combination Mass' (if both are attached and sitting on a weigh bridge) is actually 5750kg LESS the ball weight of what is being towed.

I have seen the light. :flame:

 

[Smergen]

OK, thought I might detail my current spreadsheet calcs which might help those, like myself, who this weight business isn't crystal clear. I'm happy to be corrected and shown where things aren't correct:

Colorado:
GCM - 6000kg
GVM - 3100kg
Tare - 2074kg
Kerb - 2126kg

Payload - 1026kg (GVM - Tare)

What this means to me is:

1. if I load up the car as much as I'm allowed (regardless of if this is tow ball, racks, bars, winches, canopy, water, people) the heaviest van I can tow would have an ATM of 2900kg. (6000 - 3100)
2. It's pretty easy to eat into your Payload with what I call compulsory items - people, fuel, bar, canopy. At our current spec, I'm 476kg and that's with no luggage.
3. I'm pretty keen to ensure the next van has a manageable tow ball weight

Do I have my sums/methodology right? Am I missing something?

 

[Drover]

Nah, spot on @Smergen I was trying to figure out how to say the same........basically if the scalies get you the van shouldn't weight more than the tag says....................your vehicle shouldn't weight more than the tag says...................and the clincher is when they are hooked up together and on the pads the weight shouldn't be more then the tug's GCM.......so in reality the van and the tug will not be near either of their mass weights or you will be over.......
Truckies have to do this all the time, $1000 per ton or part there of.

 

[Where to next]

What this means to me is:

1. if I load up the car as much as I'm allowed (regardless of if this is tow ball, racks, bars, winches, canopy, water, people) the heaviest van I can tow would have an ATM of 2900kg. (6000 - 3100)
2. It's pretty easy to eat into your Payload with what I call compulsory items - people, fuel, bar, canopy. At our current spec, I'm 476kg and that's with no luggage.
3. I'm pretty keen to ensure the next van has a manageable tow ball weight

Do I have my sums/methodology right? Am I missing something?

Pretty much how I understand it. You are in a good position being able to play with about a 1 tonne payload.

 

[Pace]

@davemc C7 is great with our van, yes the rear is a little soft (airbags will fix that), as for towing agreed with Where to next the tank is just that bit small. As for non towing, my gosh, just got back from our trip away and the C7 eats the highway up. I got 780k out of the tank with family of 6 and the roof tray loaded with gear (clothes/ cooking gear, toys).

Re the plate figures you mention, car or van?

 

[Fabulous]

Just having a think about this, I wouldn't want to be at the limit, or very close to the limit, still think it is interesting that dealers are quick to say their car can tow 3500, or 3000 or what ever, however do not give any further advice, dad bought a BT 50 last year and the dealer was quoting the specs, but backtracked a bit when I asked if you could have weight in the tray as well, he couldn't give exact details, but confirm if would affect towing weight. Just as well dad has s light van......

 

[Smergen]

Pretty much how I understand it. You are in a good position being able to play with about a 1 tonne payload.

Perhaps, the benefit of having a dual cab, but you trade that off as a "people mover". We're only sticking with it whilst the kids are small and can easily fit in the back seat. After the big lap, we're going to head back to a sedan type vehicle so that they can comfortably enjoy road trips.

Having said that, once I look at the other things I want to add into the truck (water, fuel, drawers, equipment, dual battery, bash plates, etc) it's easy to use it up.

Just having a think about this, I wouldn't want to be at the limit, or very close to the limit, still think it is interesting that dealers are quick to say their car can tow 3500, or 3000 or what ever, however do not give any further advice, dad bought a BT 50 last year and the dealer was quoting the specs, but backtracked a bit when I asked if you could have weight in the tray as well, he couldn't give exact details, but confirm if would affect towing weight. Just as well dad has s light van......

Yep, that's why I've set the limit of the new van at 2700kg regardless of tow ball weight or size. I drove the old Pajero at it's limit and you knew it. I'm an engineer, I prefer reasonable safety margins. I figure if 2900kg would be it, plus the room manufacturers add in, I reckon 2700kg is a reasonable starting point.