Solar The Solar Panel Thread

[bigcol]

Hi @bigcol,
damn. 3 years is not good.
Are you game to get another identical one?

cheers
Mike

yeah, why not

maybe at 50* in the engine bay is too much, maybe not
maybe I flattened it from lack of use, and thats why it went pear shaped

who knows

 

[bigcol]

Hi @bigcol , Optima yellow top is a quality battery and should have given years of service. Being Gel, there are constraints on charging algorithms, and over charging voltage and float are more critical than AGM type. See link provided on my previous posting and the warning therein. Go for an AGM next time perhaps?? Good luck.

I buy whatever is cheapest at the time..............

I got the 2 yellow tops for the same price as 1 from a battery shop,so I cannot complain too much

one was in my car (usage is once every 3 or 4 days)
one was in my Cruiser (usage every day)

 

[Boots in Action]

I buy whatever is cheapest at the time..............

I got the 2 yellow tops for the same price as 1 from a battery shop,so I cannot complain too much

one was in my car (usage is once every 3 or 4 days)
one was in my Cruiser (usage every day)

Perhaps the charging voltage in your vehicle/s is too high for a Gel battery??? Most alternators put out about 14.4 or more volts which may be ??? above what the Gel can handle if used for longer periods?? This would definitely be the case on start up after a period of non use as alternator would go for max charge AND voltage when it could. Just clutching at straws at this point as other problems may enter into the situation. But getting 2 for the price of 1 means that you are getting battery for half price, so half the life is not such a loss!!

 

[Boots in Action]

As for GEL v AGM it's really price, like those new things, name escapes me but they may be whiz bang but just too expensive, especially as most folks only use their van for maybe a month a year.

I think you are referring to the latest Lithium Ion type battery @Drover , and they must have a special charger too. No more "KISS" then!!

 

[bigcol]

Perhaps the charging voltage in your vehicle/s is too high for a Gel battery??? Most alternators put out about 14.4 or more volts which may be ??? above what the Gel can handle if used for longer periods?? This would definitely be the case on start up after a period of non use as alternator would go for max charge AND voltage when it could. Just clutching at straws at this point as other problems may enter into the situation. But getting 2 for the price of 1 means that you are getting battery for half price, so half the life is not such a loss!!

to my mind, ANY battery that lasts longer than 18 months - 2 years is a bonus

I have had Century batteries die 2 days after 12 month warranty ended
and Exide
and supercreap brand.........

meh, 3 years, 75K and lots of beach work, its done its job
not to mention the amount of times I have had to winch toyboatas out of harms way

 

[Drover]

So when I come over to Wait awhile in 2019, how much notice do you need to go shopping for me @bigcol ??????

and yep @Boots in Action thems the one's I meant, they may be the ants pants but they are too many $$$$$ at the moment considering a new charger is required so the $$$ per year isn't really viable, weight is just a sales pitch.

I have had batteries last 7 yrs and some last 3 mths, thankfully I didn't have to pay for the 3 mth failure, good brands just luck of draw, in fact my GEL that spat it was only 3 yrs old I think, I even had a tree branch punch a hole in the battery of a G60, battery lived underneath in the open, emptied what was left of the acid into a billy, patched hole with a bit of tree and bog, when dry filled battery back up fired up the Patrol to charge it, ( G60's had a crank handle, analogue starter motor) then could leave the camp for a trouble free drive home and around the place for another 10 mths until it finally carked it, actually patch let go so thought may as well part out the $50 for a new N70Z battery. Would have been very handy to have a few solar panels back then but they were only just starting to be used on space craft. (Notice topic mentioned)

 

[G Daddy]

Hi @Boots in Action I thing you're getting your batteries mixed up, below is an extract from the spec for Optima Yellow

Optima yellow top is a quality battery and should have given years of service. Being Gel, there are constraints on charging algorithms,

Plate Design: High purity lead-tin alloy. Wound cell configuration utilizing proprietary SPIRALCELL® technology.
Electrolyte: Sulfuric acid, H2SO4
Case: Polypropylene
Color: Case: Light Gray
Cover: “OPTIMA“ Yellow
Alternator: 3.65 to 15.0 volts
Battery Charger (Constant Voltage): 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate
Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum (indefinite time at lower voltages)
Rapid RechargeConstant voltage charger) Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.
Cyclic or Series String Applications: 14.7 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 3 amp constant current for 1 hour.
All limits must be strictly adhered to.

 

[bigcol]

well, I have seen temps of up to 75*C under the bonnet (have a temp probe next to master cyl) in summer, driving on Forrest Hwy

so it does not surprise me that the max for them is 51.7*C

even with a solar panel to keep it charged when not in use (see what I did there), I need to insulate the battery somehow

 

[mikerezny]

well, I have seen temps of up to 75*C under the bonnet (have a temp probe next to master cyl) in summer, driving on Forrest Hwy

so it does not surprise me that the max for them is 51.7*C

even with a solar panel to keep it charged when not in use (see what I did there), I need to insulate the battery somehow

Hi @bigcol,

is there any way to also duct incoming air around the battery?

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi @Boots in Action I thing you're getting your batteries mixed up, below is an extract from the spec for Optima Yellow

Ummnn!! Well @G Daddy, that certainly is a knockout punch!! Put me on the ropes for a bit. But I believe that I am NOT getting mixed up about charging Gel batteries in general. So, I set out to dig up the info I had seen earlier so I could be sure of what I was saying. After more research, I have more than ample references which are at odds to that info including from sites which include the charging of Optima batteries. Of course, the battery manufacturer recommends certain procedures for its own batteries, but there are plenty of others which have different ideas too!! Here are some references to consider from looking up "gel charging rates":.........................................................................................

The "smart chargers" are profiled with contemporary charging philosophy in mind, and also take information from the battery to provide maximum charge benefit with minimum observation. Some gel cell and AGM batteries may require special settings or chargers. Our units are selected for their suitability on the battery types they specify. Gel batteries generally require a specific charge profile, and a gel specific or gel selectable or gel suitable charger is called for. The peak charging voltage for Gel batteries is 14.1 or 14.4 volts, which is lower than a wet or AGM type battery needs for a full charge. Exceeding this voltage in a Gel battery can cause bubbles in the electrolyte gel, and permanent damage. ......................................................................................................................................................................................................

Deep Cycle Gel:- Century Deep Cycle Gel batteries should be recharged using a charger recommended for Gel type batteries. The charging voltage is lower for Gel batteries and charging should be paused if the battery or ambient temperature exceeds 50°C. Charging using a vehicles alternator is not recommended as the current limit will be too high and can lead to over charging if not regularly checked. Use a charger, current limited to 0.2C (20% of battery capacity) at a charging voltage between 14.1-14.4Volts following cyclic use or 13.5- 13.8V following standby use........................................................................................................................................................................................

In addition, the valve must safely release any excess pressure that may be produced during overcharging, otherwise the cell would be irreparably damaged. It is because of the safety mechanism of the valve that overcharging hurts a sealed battery.
The excessive pressure that the valve is releasing is both hydrogen and oxygen. The more you overcharge a battery, there is less oxygen and hydrogen left inside the battery to recombine and create water. In essence, the battery dries out.

It’s important to note that a sealed battery must never be opened once it leaves the factory. If opened, the cell loses its pressure, and the outside air will “poison” the plates and cause an imbalance that destroys the recombination chemistry.

Hence the name: Sealed, Valve Regulated (SVR) Battery................................................................................................................................

The correct charging voltage for a Gel battery is 14.4 to 14.6 volts maximum at 68°F. The correct charging voltage for our Absorbed lead acid battery is 14.4 to 14.6 volts maximum at 68°F....................................................................................................................................................

Sorry @G Daddy , but these are just a few of the articles that tend to be at odds with those specs put out on Optima batteries. Who do you want to believe?? Perhaps @bigcol , that is possibly one of the reasons that you have a bubble (from internal pressure?) on your failed Gel battery by over (continued) charging at too high a VOLTAGE. Note warning about using car alternators without special voltage control.
No conflict intended, but just different ideas from other manufacturers on their Gel batteries and charging details. Most other references are of the same opinion. What do you think?? Regards

 

[bigcol]

Sorry @G Daddy , but these are just a few of the articles that tend to be at odds with those specs put out on Optima batteries. Who do you want to believe?? Perhaps @bigcol , that is possibly one of the reasons that you have a bubble (from internal pressure?) on your failed Gel battery by over (continued) charging at too high a VOLTAGE. Note warning about using car alternators without special voltage control.

maybe

maybe not
(I believe that this battery has been cactii for several months)

Std TD42 Alternator only produces 14.2-14.5V
out of this 14V+ it is charging Batt1 (primary) from start (until it gets to 13.5V) then charges Batt2 (secondary) on a charge / discharge cycle while maintaining Batt1 levels at 13.5V

so, NO, I dont think it has been over charged and thats what killed it

this battery has the following "attached" while under normal conditions
from a front fuse box
Analogue clock
electric compass
reversing Camera
Front Amp
2 x ciggy plugs in dash
2 x ciggy plug in rear of console
2 x DVD head rests

from Rear Fuse Box
Rear Amp
Engel 1 plug
Engel 2 plug
2 x ciggy plugs in side
Reversing Lights

now, given the usage of this vehicle in the last 12 months
3 months not moving at all while I was unable to drive - my guess battery was flattened
used once a week for 4 months (again,I was unable to drive)
in that time my guess it was trying to charge the battery, but while not running for long it wasn't enough, and with everything running off it it kept flattening the battery when not in use

while I was unable to use the car (7 months)- I should have had a charger on Batt2 to keep it in a good state - but I didnt
I also should have had it used more frequently than once a week

meh, you get that

lesson learned

now, @Boots in Action I can sort of understand the mumbo jumbo put out by Century and others of a "generic" instruction for a battery charging regime............
however
I'm one of those people who take the Manufacturers point of view (until proven wrong) over other "experts"
(like rated shackles, dont use airbags in rear suspension as its dangerous - you know what I mean)

 

[bigcol]

Hi @bigcol,
is there any way to also duct incoming air around the battery?
cheers
Mike

this is not a picture of my engine bay, but you get the idea of lack of room

the best suggestion I have found (out of several - get stuffed was one I liked) is to wrap the battery in windscreen sun shade to help insulate it
also
the GU TD42 relies on air coming through the radiator, over the engine, and out under the gearbox to help cool the engine bay down, as well as a small % coming through the bonnet over the intercooler and down under gearbox
gaps between chassis and inner guard, gaps between radiator and air con condenser rad all hinder this air flow

 

[bigcol]

also.................. while I'm off thread already - excuse me for a little longer

I spent a small fortune many years ago for the following gauges from Autron - now owned by Redarc

Gauge 1
EGT's, Boost pressure, cabin temp (probe behind rear seat sort of middle of the car)

Gauge 2
Oil Pressure, Water Temp, under bonnet temp

Gauge 3
Batt 1, Batt 2, Amp current draw (from a Hall effect probe on Batt 2)

 

[G Daddy]

Hi @Boots in Action , I like @bigcol just take manufacturers recommendations as they all seem to vary for the same battery type

 

[Drover]

I think the manufacturer would have a fair idea on how their product likes to be maintained in regards to charging regime, variety in construction between brands but still qualify for the same label would determine things................especially as some GEL's/AGM can be used as cranking units and many can't.

 

[mikerezny]

Hi @bigcol,
is it worth a phone call to the technical people at Century to find out if they are interested in finding out what might have caused the problem?

I know it's a long shot, but it will only cost a bit of time and a phone call and it might provide some useful information.

Or you might get lucky and get a free replacement.

cheers
Mike

 

[Bellbirdweb]

@bigcol, I have an Optima yellow top for my start battery, which is a helicoil AGM.

I understood all of the yellow tops were AGM and not gel, so I did a bit of googling.

The Optima web site shows this:

“An OPTIMA battery is an AGM battery, not a gel battery or regular flooded battery. A deeply discharged OPTIMA battery (less than 10.5 volts) will not test or recharge properly if treated as a gel battery or regular flooded battery. A handheld electronic battery tester will most likely provide inaccurate results.”

 

[bigcol]

Hi @bigcol,

is there any way to also duct incoming air around the battery?

cheers
Mike

here is a better piccie of my engine bay.............................

 

[bigcol]

now, to swing this thread back on track....................

I need ideas and suggestions (without technical stuff)
- I'm a crane driver ......I lift heavy things.........
- I'm also a Storeman......I am Lazy................
- and a Purchasing Officer ......... so I'm a tightwad

I want some form of Solar charger, mounted on my car permanently, that will assist in keeping my new (3 years old) deep cycle Yellow Top Optima battery alive

budget............
there is none, cheaper the better (got more important expensive things on the list of things to do to Pooie (new Turbo, Dyno Tuned, new draw system or repair the old, etc.......)

Technicality................
Plug and Pray thanks, too much stuffing around will get it pushed to the back of the list for sure

life span.............
hopefully never need to look at it again

the hardest task at the moment is working out WHERE to put a Solar panel, to gain maximum effect and minimal stuff around or moving

 

[Eddii]

Great read thanks @Boots in Action. Now when in storage mode do I plug the caravan so the Setec trickle charges our battery or just pug in a dedicated 12v charger? I have a Ctek MXS 5.0 it's suppose to charge GEL batteries as well. Which one would be better at charging?