17' Series No full Annex allowed???

cruza driver

Hercules
Staff member
Nov 9, 2010
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That was my van. Took it to Corrimal for first run. Jayco Newcastle had the annex fitted by Kakadu. The van was the 1 they had ordered for the Sydney show. No mention of gas issues
Hey @Matthew keough you may remember I had a quick chat to you when you were packing up I was the one with the 16 parked over the the side from you.

Hope you had a great 1st trip mate.

It looks like you got your van just in time for the new regs too.

Enjoy the forum
 
Jul 4, 2014
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Hey @Matthew keough you may remember I had a quick chat to you when you were packing up I was the one with the 16 parked over the the side from you.

Hope you had a great 1st trip mate.

It looks like you got your van just in time for the new regs too.

Enjoy the forum
Yeah thanks mate had a great trip, also dragged it up to Umina in the school holidays, for 4 nights. Getting around it now. Can't stop looking at all the mods in this forum. To many ideas.
 
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Phillip Mounfield

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Jul 17, 2014
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Just went through and ran the calculation from AS/NZS 5601.2 2013 for our van, for the fridge @ 1.24MJ/hr and the stove/grill @20.8MJ/hr the total vent area V = 18644.4mm², therefore two vents 200mm x 100mm placed on either side or either end of the annex is sufficient ventilation to meet compliance under the standard so where the annex industry reps or governing body or whatever are getting the 30% figure I don't know but based on this it is way wrong.

Dave
Hi,

I am Phil and I am the Trade Sales Coordinator for Aussie Traveller.

The calculation you refer to relates to the requirement for ventilating the enclosure in which the appliance is used, and as such your door vent and possible roof hatch vent is sufficient. This is because none of these devices "exhaust" INSIDE the caravan. If you were fitting an annexe to your van (and there was nothing venting/exhausting under the awning, we would simply need to replicate that amount of venting in the Windskirt and there would be no problems.

The problem lies with regarding to the placement of fridge/stove/HWS flues/exhausts.... these MUST vent to an "open area" and under the new gas regulations, (where a caravan annexe is now treated the same was as a permanent hard-stay building) this problems arise.

We are turning away people daily unfortunately - others are opting to have the gas disconnected from their fridge, bayonets moved, vents changed to be roof vents - all an expense.

Unfortunately at this stage common sense is not prevailing.
 

rags

Well-Known Member
Hi @Phillip Mounfield , thanks for joining us. Will help to have an expert advise us. Question. We don't have an annexe and probably won't get one for this van, but for future knowledge, we only have the stove on the annexe side. I assume from all this that is not an issue?

BJ

AS the stove is not a room sealed appliance like a fridge it is not an issue. Only a fridge, a hot water heater and a ducted heater are the appliances [ie vent to external ] affect the annex issue
 

gwadir

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Feb 2, 2013
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Hi,

I am Phil and I am the Trade Sales Coordinator for Aussie Traveller.

The calculation you refer to relates to the requirement for ventilating the enclosure in which the appliance is used, and as such your door vent and possible roof hatch vent is sufficient. This is because none of these devices "exhaust" INSIDE the caravan. If you were fitting an annexe to your van (and there was nothing venting/exhausting under the awning, we would simply need to replicate that amount of venting in the Windskirt and there would be no problems.

The problem lies with regarding to the placement of fridge/stove/HWS flues/exhausts.... these MUST vent to an "open area" and under the new gas regulations, (where a caravan annexe is now treated the same was as a permanent hard-stay building) this problems arise.

We are turning away people daily unfortunately - others are opting to have the gas disconnected from their fridge, bayonets moved, vents changed to be roof vents - all an expense.

Unfortunately at this stage common sense is not prevailing.
Hi @Phillip Mounfield welcome to the forum, as said it will be good to have an expert along.

I still don't understand how a room sealed appliance like the fridge (HWS & Ducted Heater I can understand) is any different to the stove, the stove burns and produces CO as part of the combustion process, the door vents and roof vents are installed to vent this gas. How then is the fridge any different to the stove, from what you have said if the fridge vented into the van rather than being room sealed then the venting around the door would be acceptable, to me it doesn't make sense, especially based on the gas consumption figures for a fridge. Another thing to consider also is the physical properties of carbon monoxide (CO) gas, this gas is lighter than air, CO having a molecular mass of 28 is slightly less than air with a molecular mass of 28.8, so it will rise to the highest point. You said installing vents in the skirt would alleviate this problem, you would also need to install vents in a higher part or parts of the annex as well. If the authorities were to say the regulations were intended for a fixed aluminium annex where sealing is complete then that may/would make more sense as the sealing of an annex of that type is a lot better than a canvas and/or vinyl annex. I just don't get it and if it is such an issue then why haven't the authorities made the regulations retrospective if they are so concerned?

Dave
 
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Phillip Mounfield

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Jul 17, 2014
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Thanks all for your warm welcome, unfortunately on this topic neither I, nor our management, nor the management of any of the big annexe manufacturers with whom we have had lengthy discussions (tebbs, Australia wide, kakadu etc) can currently claim to be experts on this subject!!!

There is talk of it being retrospective. This along with a number of other questions was put to the relevant authority but as yet nothing as come back. The amount of ambiguity in all of this is quite silly, so much so that a couple of annexe reseller boycott the QLD show for fear of misinterpretation costing them down the track. Like you we figured the act applies solely to hard stand annexes until they clarified otherwise. Even to the point they said a dull mesh annexe will not be allowed without ensuring the flow rates of the mesh do not breach the definition of an outside area.

As for why a stove is okay but other appliances are not, it's only gas flues that are the issue. A stoves element requires it to have been approved for indoor use (I guess this comes down to flow rates) a fridge or HWS flue has not. I never said the fridge could be vented into the van just that is must not be vented into an annexe. Must be vented out of the van and away from the annexe.

The reason only low vents are required in the annexe is that it just needs to replicate the low vent in the van (door) that is now inside the annexe. The top vent inside the van still vents externally and is still sufficient.

The soft floor camper trailer guys have just been given the great news too but so far no one has been to vocal from that side surprisingly.
 
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macca

(aka maccayak)
Mar 20, 2012
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Dave I think the main differences are that a stove if used in the correct manner is generally only on when you are up and cooking. So it is turned off when you are sleeping. You can see when it is turned off.

A fridge is on all the time when turned to gas on simple models, therefore that means it is still on when you are sleeping. I think eventually with the advances in 12volt power and solar panels, gas fridges will be a thing of the past, unfortunately. The people regulating the gas industry are at the same time killing it.
 
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gwadir

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Dave I think the main differences are that a stove if used in the correct manner is generally only on when you are up and cooking. So it is turned off when you are sleeping. You can see when it is turned off.

A fridge is on all the time when turned to gas on simple models, therefore that means it is still on when you are sleeping. I think eventually with the advances in 12volt power and solar panels, gas fridges will be a thing of the past, unfortunately. The people regulating the gas industry are at the same time killing it.
@macca,

Good point that the stove is not on all the time and I agree with what you're saying but the gas usage of the fridge is so small and a canvas annex is not sealed are the points I am making.

Dave
 
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Delano

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Apr 27, 2014
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I can see where the authorities are coming from, but surely they could adapt a sealed flu up the side of the van past the annexe? Surely that wouldn't be too difficult..
 

Buckleys

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Jul 25, 2014
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We have just ordered out 17.56.2 OB from the Brisbane show and we are having the same issue. But the dealer emailed me an annex that he had done and it is fully enclosed... so I am yet to get to the bottom of this!
 
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dagree

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Mar 3, 2012
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We have just ordered out 17.56.2 OB from the Brisbane show and we are having the same issue. But the dealer emailed me an annex that he had done and it is fully enclosed... so I am yet to get to the bottom of this!

Congrats on the purchase @Buckleys .... And may I say a great choice ;)
Be interesting to see what they have done to the annex to make it compliant.
We were lucky enough to have our annex walls fitted a month before the regs changed :)
 
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jandl

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Mar 18, 2014
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From my very limited understanding this subject I am hoping I may still get a full annex for my 16.49-1. I only have the gas cook top and the grill (to be honest I have no idea what powers it as I have never opened it) on that side. Any help will be appreciated.
 

17triton

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Feb 24, 2013
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From my very limited understanding this subject I am hoping I may still get a full annex for my 16.49-1. I only have the gas cook top and the grill (to be honest I have no idea what powers it as I have never opened it) on that side. Any help will be appreciated.
Should be fine with the 16 as the fridge is on the good side!
 
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dagree

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@jandl you are one of the lucky ones as @17triton says your fridge is on the opposite side of the annex... It's the side that the fridge's vents are on that are the issue
 

jandl

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Mar 18, 2014
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Thanks guys I was hoping I would be alright. Another item added to the list of things to be done when time permits.
 
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Hoffy

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Jun 10, 2014
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We have just ordered out 17.56.2 OB from the Brisbane show and we are having the same issue. But the dealer emailed me an annex that he had done and it is fully enclosed... so I am yet to get to the bottom of this!
Congrats to you also!!! I'm assuming you purchased through Brisbane Camperland like we did at the show. We haven't been up to make our final changes/add ons yet but looking to do that within the next month. Be interesting to see what they offer us with an annex.
Could you tell me the name of the person you are dealing with? The lady that sold us the van comes from Melbourne so we don't have a salesperson as such.
Was the annex a jayco annex?
Be interested to know more as I am concerned we won't be able to purchase one and we have some permanent spots we camp where we stay 2 weeks plus!!
When do you get your van? I think ours is approx October.
Maybe we will have them roughly the same time and do a weekend with the newbies!!
Thanks again for the info, Mrs Hoffy