Electrical Jayco Standard Electrics

[Bellbirdweb]

Thanks @Bellbirdweb ,

I hear you re inexact science.

With regards to the 4 years versus 12 months from batteries, I am assuming that is with a much more frequent use pattern than I have? Or was that with regards to how long they may last after recovering them?

I had thought that the longevity of the battery was measured with reference to the number of charge and discharge cycles, of which my batteries would have had no more than 30 (guess). Even if I'm out by 100% and it is 60, that's still really low yes? Shouldn't it be in the hundreds?

Thanks
MR

Remembering that one total discharge down to below 10v can also damage a battery beyond repair.

With you potentially not getting a full charge on yours as a result of the now well documented wiring issues, it's possible that at some stage over the past 2 years you may have inadvertently pulled them down at least once or perhaps more than once.

The one in particular that I only got 12 months out of had this happen several times trying to run my engel fridge in hot weather.

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
the really good part of this post is how really quickly you are getting a handle on your setup.

here are a few questions:

Did you charge both batteries using your Ctek before you went away?

Last weekend, do you you have any estimate from your solar controller, how much solar charge went into your batteries?

What gives you the low voltage alarm?

Does this mean you got through the weekend without using the generator?

Just quick estimate. If your batteries are only 36Ah, total 72Ah, and you got negligible solar, and did not use the generator for 2 days then a reasonable estimate of your power usage is about 36Ah per day. What do you think?

cheers
Mike

Hi @mikerezny ,

Yes, good news. Slowly getting a good handle on how it all hangs together.

Before the last weekend away, yes I did fully charge the two batteries, in the van, all week with the external Ctek, so the batteries were not reliant on the built in Setec. Man I wish those tow names were not so close. Charged across the batteries, positive on one and negative the other.

The low voltage alarm comes from the solar regulator. And it is impossible to override, either connect to power source or detach wires or it keeps screaming, ALL NIGHT !!!!!

Yes, I got through the last weekend without using the generator.

I tried to monitor the amount of solar going in, with reference to the Solar regulator. The sun was super low in the sky. Regulator was regularly showing less than 1 amp. On the odd occasion I saw the van appearing to be in full sun I raced to the regulator to get a reading, and i never found it reading more than about 7 amps. For two 150 watt panels that is way too low I believe. And the solar regulator is on the opposite side of the van, way more than a metre from battery, and it is a PWM version. So that definitely needs replacing.

I was also extra careful with my usage all weekend, because I really didn't want to have to rig up generator. So i had even less lights on than usual, I grabbed beer out of fridge really really quickly, and it was also a particularly cold weekend so fridge did not work much at all.

However, yep, I reckon that is pretty close to a fair guesstimate of what I am using.

Which would mean if i replaced the dead batteries with two 120Ah AGM batteries, and had a decent charger, I should never have a problem.

But I really need to be able to monitor more easily and more reliably than the current solar regulator and incorrectly wired Drifter so if I am destroying batteries I know it before it is too late. Without needing to get multi meter out and disconnect from load and power source etc.

Thanks
MR

 

[aspiremr]

Remembering that one total discharge down to below 10v can also damage a battery beyond repair.

With you potentially not getting a full charge on yours as a result of the now well documented wiring issues, it's possible that at some stage over the past 2 years you may have inadvertently pulled them down at least once or perhaps more than once.

The one in particular that I only got 12 months out of had this happen several times trying to run my engel fridge in hot weather.

My guess @Bellbirdweb is that I have probably regularly drawn them down too low, and damaged them accordingly. D'oh - the danger of blisssful ignorance hey, LOL

MR

 

[mikerezny]

When the 240 volt supply is turned on, and the battery bank is turned on at the drifter panel, the volt reading on the Drifter is 13.60 volts. The multi meter shows 13.49. However, the multi meter shows 13.49 when tested in one direction, and only 12.70 when tested the other way (e.g. +ve on B to -ve on A, versus +ve on A to -ve on B).

Hi @aspiremr,
something is VERY wrong here! You might get a little voltage drop across the inline fuses, or a little across the shunt, but not that much.

Two choices,
One, put the batteries back in exactly as before and recreate the problem and identify the cause. I am tenacious and that is what I would probably do to identify exactly what is causing this before moving on.

Two, rewire the two batteries as per the previous posts and ensure that all four ways of measuring the battery voltage give identical readings (+veA and -veA, +veB and -veB, +veA and -veB; +veB and -veA).

However, If you asked me which way you should go, I would suggest choice two. We already know the wiring is not correct. So it needs to be fixed and then checked before moving on.

The Setec should be floating your batteries at 13.65V and after 24 hours should drop down to the storage voltage of 13.25V but periodically boosting to 14.05V for 15min every 24 hours.

Do you have a ST20 III or an ST35 III?

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

HI @mikerezny , No, couldn't check the AMP's. My Multi Meter only seems to have settings for Volts, Resistance, and Hertz???? Who makes a multi meter that doesnt measure amps. When I bought it a few months ago went to a specialist electrical supplies company, and they only had a choice of 2. This one which was about $40 and one for approx $300 aimed at auto electricians or other electrical professionals. At that stage I didn't really even understand what I was buying.

As for measuring and going to bed, big day at work tomorrow, and so while I would love to see how long it takes to get to fully flat, I know i won't cope at work tomorrow if I don't call it.

even though I won't be able to get it down to the 10 volts you mentioned previously, can't we draw conclusions about the health of the battery just by how well it is holding charge under load and how much voltage is left after so many hours of load?

Hi @aspiremr , you are doing well in testing. Do not be alarmed that voltage drops off quickly towards the end just before 0% capacity reached. This is normal when ever a load is placed on a battery. As the voltage drops, the load (light bulb) is still trying to maintain its brightness and uses MORE amps in trying to do so. This hastens loss of remaining capacity, so it then gets onto the really steep slope towards 0% capacity.
Your multimeter should have a setting. I know that even the cheapest ones at about $18.00 have settings for ohms (resistance), AC voltage, DC voltage, DC amps to 10 amps, and diode and transistor testing. The dearer ones have a clamp style connector which you place around a cable and it will read DC amperes for you when on the correct setting. The cheaper ones only have two insulated probes. To measure amps with this cheaper multimeter, it is necessary to put setting to probably 10 amps scale, and place multimeter in series with wire carrying load. You do this by disconnecting load wire at an appropriate place and place one probe on removed wire and the other probe on point where wire was removed. Polarity is not critical as most meters will still give readings but with a minus sign in front of figures. Not as convenient as clamp style, but still workable. I will try to get a photo of a cheap meter and point out the settings you need and how to check current flow. @mikerezny is guiding you along the right path.

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
something is VERY wrong here! You might get a little voltage drop across the inline fuses, or a little across the shunt, but not that much.

Two choices,
One, put the batteries back in exactly as before and recreate the problem and identify the cause. I am tenacious and that is what I would probably do to identify exactly what is causing this before moving on.

Two, rewire the two batteries as per the previous posts and ensure that all four ways of measuring the battery voltage give identical readings (+veA and -veA, +veB and -veB, +veA and -veB; +veB and -veA).

However, If you asked me which way you should go, I would suggest choice two. We already know the wiring is not correct. So it needs to be fixed and then checked before moving on.

The Setec should be floating your batteries at 13.65V and after 24 hours should drop down to the storage voltage of 13.25V but periodically boosting to 14.05V for 15min every 24 hours.

Do you have a ST20 III or an ST35 III?

cheers
Mike

Thanks @mikerezny ,

The van has a ST35 III.

I thought that was really strange also. But then I thought it was very possibly influenced by the parallel connection for Battery A being wired to the load side of the shunt.

I will re-wire the batteries correctly, although that will take a few weekends until i get around to it, in fact looking at calendar it could be about 4 weeks. Once I have done that I will re-measure again. Will ask for a little clarification before I go and do that, particularly into where the current 40A fuses are and where they should be if is re-configure.

But, once re-cabled correctly I will then test these measurements all again.

Thanks\
MR

 

[mikerezny]

Which would mean if i replaced the dead batteries with two 120Ah AGM batteries, and had a decent charger, I should never have a problem.

Hi @aspiremr,
AND had a fully functioning solar system delivering 15A or more in good sunlight, a good MPPT controller wired close to the batteries, and suitable cabling to handle 15A coming from the roof to the solar controller. I would bet you won't need 120Ah and will get by comfortably on two much less expensive 100Ah batteries.

Reading the battery voltage each morning before the sun hits the panels should give you an indication of SOC. So, each day you should be able to see if the solar system is replenishing your daily usage.

cheers
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
something is VERY wrong here! You might get a little voltage drop across the inline fuses, or a little across the shunt, but not that much.

Two choices,
One, put the batteries back in exactly as before and recreate the problem and identify the cause. I am tenacious and that is what I would probably do to identify exactly what is causing this before moving on.

Two, rewire the two batteries as per the previous posts and ensure that all four ways of measuring the battery voltage give identical readings (+veA and -veA, +veB and -veB, +veA and -veB; +veB and -veA).

However, If you asked me which way you should go, I would suggest choice two. We already know the wiring is not correct. So it needs to be fixed and then checked before moving on.

The Setec should be floating your batteries at 13.65V and after 24 hours should drop down to the storage voltage of 13.25V but periodically boosting to 14.05V for 15min every 24 hours.

Do you have a ST20 III or an ST35 III?

cheers
Mike

Another weird reading I got was as follows:

240 volt disconnected.
Drifter pane set to battery bank off - so no load on batteries.
Batteries still connected in Van in parallel, albeit as we know not entirely correctly
Drifter still powered up independent of the load switch as it has a direct cable with 2A fuse for powering it directly.

When I measured battery A with multi meter it had 12.71 volts.
When i measured battery B with multi meter it showed 12.57 volts.

I would have thought in a completed circuit with two batteries in parallel they should have been reading the same voltage.

Just when i think I am getting it a reading like this confuses me.

Any ideas?

 

[mikerezny]

particularly into where the current 40A fuses are and where they should be if is re-configure.

Hi @aspiremr,
the fuse above the left-hand battery, battery A will disappear. There will be no fuse connecting the two batteries.

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks @mikerezny
With regards to whether the Setec is charging the batteries or not, I had the Multi meter on them, and also compared with the Drifter panel this weekend.

When the 240 volt supply is turned on, and the battery bank is turned on at the drifter panel, the volt reading on the Drifter is 13.60 volts. The multi meter shows 13.49. However, the multi meter shows 13.49 when tested in one direction, and only 12.70 when tested the other way (e.g. +ve on B to -ve on A, versus +ve on A to -ve on B).

When I then turn off the battery bank and the 240 volt power, the Drifter reads 13.4 and the multi meter reads 13.34.

So there is definitely a voltage drop when 240 volt is removed.

Does this imply that Setec is charging, or is that not a definitive enough test until I get the batteries re-cabled correctly?

Thanks
MR

Hi @aspiremr , if voltage increases when 240 v power connected to Setec, that means hat th SETEC is at least trying to place current (charge) into batteries - a good sign that the Setec is working. But is it working enough (output) to keep up with demands of load PLUS have capacity to recharge batteries towards their full capacity?? Goes back to @Bellbirdweb thought that demand is exceeding supply (input).

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr , if voltage increases when 240 v power connected to Setec, that means hat th SETEC is at least trying to place current (charge) into batteries - a good sign that the Setec is working. But is it working enough (output) to keep up with demands of load PLUS have capacity to recharge batteries towards their full capacity?? Goes back to @Bellbirdweb thought that demand is exceeding supply (input).

Thanks @Boots in Action ,

Next weekend when i am out there, assuming the sun in Perth decides to come out, I will pull van out into sun, run a long power cord, and test voltages with the various power load cables disconnect. That should enable me to isolate which load cable comes from solar regulator and which one comes from Setec. Although I am guessing that the solar cable is the one with a 30A fuse and the Setec would be the one with a 40A fuse.

And then I can use multi meter to measure current coming from solar independent of what the solar regulator is showing me.

Still can't figure out how my multi meter measures current. I'll take a pic and maybe you can point out which setting on the dial is for current for me?.

Thanks
MR

 

[mikerezny]

When I measured battery A with multi meter it had 12.71 volts.
When i measured battery B with multi meter it showed 12.57 volts.

Ho @aspiremr,
yes, the voltages should be the same, but with some load, perhaps the Setec, perhaps the drifter, there is likely to be a small voltage drop across each fuse, and across the shunt. Next time you are in the van do the same test and check these voltages.
Also, check the large fuse above battery B.

There is some weirdness here. Identify where it is is complicate by the way it is wired, It is difficult to isolate parts to do good tests.

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks @Boots in Action ,

Next weekend when i am out there, assuming the sun in Perth decides to come out, I will pull van out into sun, run a long power cord, and test voltages with the various power load cables disconnect. That should enable me to isolate which load cable comes from solar regulator and which one comes from Setec. Although I am guessing that the solar cable is the one with a 30A fuse and the Setec would be the one with a 40A fuse.

And then I can use multi meter to measure current coming from solar independent of what the solar regulator is showing me.

Still can't figure out how my multi meter measures current. I'll take a pic and maybe you can point out which setting on the dial is for current for me?.

Thanks
MR

@aspiremr , please do so and we will set you on the right path.!!

 

[aspiremr]

@aspiremr , please do so and we will set you on the right path.!!

Here is the Multi Meter, which appears to not measure current. I have tried it on every setting, and tried pressing the mode button in each of the settings, but cannot figure out how to get a current setting displayed on the screen.
Maybe I should take it back to the shop and ask them how to use it for current.

if this Pic is too small let me know and I'll upload full res shot.

And please, don't be shy about taking the mickey if it is the worst multi meter in the history of the universe, and only I could mange to find this one, my skin is thick and I am sure i deserve occasional (okay, or regular) ribbing.


View media item 291

 

[mikerezny]

Here is the Multi Meter, which appears to not measure current. I have tried it on every setting, and tried pressing the mode button in each of the settings, but cannot figure out how to get a current setting displayed on the screen.
Maybe I should take it back to the shop and ask them how to use it for current.

if this Pic is too small let me know and I'll upload full res shot.


View media item 291

Hi @aspiremr,
this pic is too small. Can you post a higher res version?

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

View media item 291

Cannot read settings very clearly. Different to most I have used. Mode, Rel, Hold and last one not readable. Mode would be a good start as it probably gives you a menu of settings to select.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi @aspiremr,
this pic is too small. Can you post a higher res version?

cheers
Mike

@mikerezny , you have this one under control. I will leave it up to you as too many "cooks in kitchen" will confuse @aspiremr !!

 

[aspiremr]

Ok, so I now know, only post full res pics. Here is Multi Meter again.

Mode button only seems to change when in Volt mode on dial from AC to DC.

View media item 292

 

[mikerezny]

Ok, so I now know, only post full res pics. Here is Multi Meter again.

Mode button only seems to change when in Volt mode on dial from AC to DC.

View media item 292

Hi @aspiremr,
no this one does not do amps. It is a tradesman quality multimeter more suitable for electricians then for 12V work.
Do you have an Altronics or Jaycar near you?

cheers
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
no this one does not do amps. It is a tradesman quality multimeter more suitable for electricians then for 12V work.
Do you have an Altronics or Jaycar near you?

cheers
Mike

LOL - of course it doesn't.

What's the bet that 999 out of 1000 people who don't know what they're doing would wander into Jaycar and buy a multi meter that does everything.

But me, trying to make sure I get a good quality one, goes to L&H, and ends up with one that does what it does extremely accurately, but isn't really very "Multi" as such.

Yep, I'l go to Jaycar tomorrow and buy a true multi multi meter. I have a much better understanding now of what I need it for, will get one with both probes and clamps, and one that does volts and Amps. Too funny.

Thanks Again.

MR