Electrical Jayco Standard Electrics

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr

Hi @Boots in Action,
if one has a drifter panel, there is a series shunt coming from the -ve of the battery. In order fro the drifter panel to measure current into and out of the battery, all the -ve leads that would normally go to the -ve terminal need to be put on the other side of the shunt.
At least that is my understanding.

Hi @aspiremr,
is it possible to get a better picture of the connections to the right battery? You will need to remove the strap securing the battery.
First question, show exactly where the black and red leads from the left battery are connected.
There appear to be three thin wires on the left side of the right battery. I suspect they go to the drifter panel. Two look like they are connected to each side of the current shunt, and the third looks like it goes to the +ve terminal. If so, it is ok for the moment.

Then there are two leads coming in from the top of the picture above the right battery. The two red wires seem to be joined and then through an inline fuse to th e+ve terminal. The black wires appear to be going to the shunt. Can you confirm that this is correct?

Then there is a heavier RED wire going through a bigger inline fuse then connecting to the +ve terminal. If you can, see if you can find the matching black wire and confirm that it connects to the shunt.

Now, you have to do some eliminating, before disconnecting anything.
I suspect that the thick red and black wires go to the Setec unit. Can you confirm this?
One of the thinner pairs of wires probably goes to the solar regulator, Can you confirm this?
That leaves the mystery of where the second pair of thinner wires goes. It is possible that it goes to you fridge. Can you confirm this?
If not, then you need to find out where it is going.

Are other any other wires that I have not identified?

If all is good up to here, then this is what I would do, given your circumstances.
As suggested by @Boots in Action, label all red wires. I believe all the black ones are all already in the right spot.
Then disconnect all red wires and the wire from the shunt to the -ve terminal
Disconnect the short thin lead connecting the two batteries.

Take both batteries and your good charger home with you. At this point, you need to only play with the batteries.
Measure the voltages of each battery. If you have time, charge each battery separately, preferably for 24 hours each.
Then wait at least 30 minutes after charging, put a small load on each battery, a couple of amps will be sufficient. Measure the voltage with this load.
Then disconnect the load wait a few minutes and measure the battery voltages again.
This will remove the surface charge and should give a reasonable indication of the SOC of the battery.

This is not its capacity. The capacity can best be measured by putting a load representing about 5% of the capacity of the battery and timing how long it takes to get down to about 10V. A good battery, discharged at 5% of its capacity should last for about 20 hours.

At this stage you should have an initial indication of whether one battery is better than the other.

Now find a load that will draw about 5A, a 60W headlight lamp would be ideal.
Connect a voltmeter across the battery and connect the headlamp. Find a few beers and take a reading of the battery every hour or so until they are discharged to about 10V. If you can find two headlamps, you can do them both at once. But that will take less time and you won't get to drink as many beers.

At this stage you will know how good the batteries are and you can determine whether to replace them or not.

As soon as the test is over, recharge the batteries as soon as possible. Give each of them 24 hours, measure the voltages. Then you can connect them in parallel and keep them on float until you are ready to put them back in the van (assuming that they are not being replaced)

I hope this all makes sense and doesn't put you off.

best wishes
Mike

Hi @mikerezny ,

Just studying thread one more time before heading out tomorrow to work on van.

Can you clarify a little from your instructions above for me please.

I will bring both batteries home with me at the end of the day tomorrow. Hopefully after tracking lots of the wires, throwing blankets over solar panels, and putting the multi-meter on the battery bank when different charge sources are connected versus disconnected, and when various loads are running or not running etc. I will take notes and gradually ask for help to interpret all the things I find.

Once I get the batteries home and have fully charged them individually with my Ctek charger, I then need to load them up as per your post above and take readings as to how long it takes to draw down etc. Is it correct that to get a 60w headlight globe and connect it to the battery i just get some cable and attach the cable to the globe at one end, and to each of the battery terminals the other end? Does it matter what gauge cable I use for this? And will any 60watt globe do, or does it need specifically to be a 12 volt car globe rather than a normal 60watt household globe?

Secondly, you talk about putting a load representing 5% of the battery capacity and drawing battery down to 10 volts, and timing how long this takes. What would you suggest would be appropriate to use to create this amount of load? Battery capacity is 96Ah at 12 volts so does that mean it is 1152 watts, and so 5% would mean get a load that is 75 watts? Or should i be getting a load that draws 5% of 96Ah so 4.8A? Not sure how to interpret this element of the testing?

Thanks for clarification

MR

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @mikerezny

Spent the morning at the van. Hope you can help interpret what I found. Took heaps of photos also. Will describe what I found first and then post photos to illustrate.

The Batteries are definitely in parallel. However, they connection between the positive and negative terminals of each battery is not direct from battery terminal to terminal. The cable from the positive terminal on battery A meets the cable from the positive terminal on battery b at a junction point. There are two of these junction points. One has a 4oA in line fuse and then runs off to the van, and I am guessing this set of cables is probably running to the Setec. The other junction point has a 30A in line fuse and i am guessing this set of cables runs to the solar.

Will cabling them in Parallel like this delver the desired results.

The second thing I noticed was that the thinner of the wire, which i think is 12gauge, is used throughout the batteries and appears to be the wire that runs off from the batteries to the rest of the van (Setec and d Solar I guess). The think gauge wire only runs on two of the terminals and only seems to have been used for the section of cable that has the 40A inline fuse in it.

The next thing I also noticed was the parallel connection for the negative terminals is also not direct, but they seem to be connected at the point of the shunt. And the cable form battery A seems to connect to the shunt on the load side of the shunt, not on the terminal side of the shunt for the second battery.

What are your thoughts on this wiring?

I'll add some Pics, and then add another post detailing measurements I took and what i found etc. The batteries are home on charge, and i will then add the 60 watt globe to load them and measure how the voltage drops while under load.

Thanks
MR

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @mikerezny . This pic shows Battery A. The thick cable coming form the positive terminal only runs far enough to allow for the 40A inline fuse, and then goes into a joiner and the same thinner wire that is used everywhere else then comes out of joiner, and goes through the heatshrink across to Battery B. The connection between Battery A and Battery B in parallel occurs within one of these transparent joiners, as the next pic shows.View media item 288

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @mikerezny,

This pic shows the cable that came from Battery A going into a joiner. It connects to a cable coming off the positive terminal of battery B, within that joiner. My finger is holding thick cable from the positive terminal of battery B, which only goes far enough to allow a 40A inline fuse, and then it goes into the same joiner as the positive cable from battery A. And then a third cable, again the thinner wire comes, out of the joiner and heads off in a heatshrink, together with a cable from the negative terminal that has come from the Shunt. Those two cables go into the floor of the van. I am guessing they go to the Setec or to power van load. View media item 287

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @mikerezny ,

last pic and post until i hear from you and you have a chance to digest. This pic is a close up of the shunt, which hangs off battery B. The cable that I am holding in my finger is the cable coming from battery A, and so I believe this is the cable that is connecting the batteries in parallel. But it is on the load side of the shunt, and not the terminal side of the shunt. Not sure what impact that would have on the batteries being connected seamlessly, or on the Shunt giving an accurate measurement.

Also, that really heavy duty thick cable only goes from Terminal to shunt, and then back to the thinner gauge wire.

Also hanging off the positive terminal of battery B and the shunt are some really really thin coloured wires, one of which has a 2A glass inline fuse. I assume these are not current carrying per se but are the wires that run to the drifter and the setec to give instructions if you like.

Thanks
MRView media item 286

 

[mikerezny]

Is it correct that to get a 60w headlight globe and connect it to the battery i just get some cable and attach the cable to the globe at one end, and to each of the battery terminals the other end? Does it matter what gauge cable I use for this? And will any 60watt globe do, or does it need specifically to be a 12 volt car globe rather than a normal 60watt household globe?

Hi @aspiremr,
a 60W 240V household lamp will not work. You need to get a 12V 60W lamp. Best bet is a car headlamp.
a 60W lamp will draw about 5A at 12V.

You have a 95Ah battery, and the battery should be able to deliver that capacity, but only over something like a 20 hour period.
So, to do a reasonable test, you need to put a load on the battery that will draw 95 Ah / 20 hours which is 4.75A per hour, 4.75Ah.
4.75A X 12 V will then give you the power being used. This is 57W, so I rounded it up a little which is how come I suggested a 60W load for the discharge test. This does not need to be exact, a 50W, 55W, 60W or 65W 12V headlamp would still be quite suitable.

You then just need to find some wire, connect it to the lamp and then when you are ready to test, connect directly to the battery terminals. The lamp will get hot so make sure it is in the air and not likely to touch anything. Note that you will probably have a halogen lamp. It is important to not touch it with you fingers as you will leave a residue that will cause the glass to expand unevenly and the lamp my explode. If you do touch it, clean it with metho.

The size of the wire used to connect the lamp is not all that important. I would suggest something about the size of the cable in a normal 240 10A extension lead. Try to keep the length down to about a meter.

If your multimeter is capable of measuring 10A, initially check the current drawn by the lamp when you first connect.

I hope this helps.

cheers
Mike

 

[mikerezny]

Battery capacity is 96Ah at 12 volts so does that mean it is 1152 watts, and so 5% would mean get a load that is 75 watts? Or should i be getting a load that draws 5% of 96Ah so 4.8A? Not sure how to interpret this element of the testing?

Hi @aspiremr,
Correct, 96Ah at 12V gives 1152W. But I believe 5% of 1152W is 57.6W.
Correct, 5% of 96Ah is 4.8A. So the wattage consumed by this load is 4.8 x 12V is also 57.6W, the same as above
Just different ways of calculating the same thing.

Does this make sense?

Is you battery 95Ah or 96A? If I remember correctly your original post stated a 95Ah battery. Doesn't really make any difference. But better to use the correct value.

You prompted me google around for my battery. I actually found the date sheet for the battery which gave a lot of useful information such as charging voltages, discharge rates, effects of temperature.

If you feel inclined, you might be able to also google and get the datasheet for your battery.
If it is like mine, it contains a lot of technical detail, but you can easily ignore the bits that don't make sense and extract the detail that is important. But, I stress, you don't actually need it to look at your present setup.

cheers
Mike

 

[mikerezny]

Also hanging off the positive terminal of battery B and the shunt are some really really thin coloured wires, one of which has a 2A glass inline fuse. I assume these are not current carrying per se but are the wires that run to the drifter and the setec to give instructions if you like.

Hi @aspiremr,
apologies for the slow response. We went off to Toorongo Falls first thing Friday. Spent the afternoon trying to extract the Falcon and the Penguin from mud that would make grease seem like a poor lubricant. Got the car out, but had to get RACV to recover the van.
Then spent Saturday watching and helping many others who also got bogged.
Then we found out that there would be a major storm, high winds, and possibly snow early Sunday. So at 5pm we pulled the pin and decided we didn't want to play camping any more this weekend.

These will be the sensing and power wires that go to your drifter. They don't have anything to do with you Setec unit.

By the way, do you have hard copies of your Setec and Drifter manuals? If not, they are easy to find online and it is well worth downloading them and printing them out. Then you have a good place to add your own notes.

You should also get a copy of the manual for your solar controller. Again, if you google the model you should easily find a pdf version of the manual.

cheers
Mike

 

[Bellbirdweb]

Hi @mikerezny ,

last pic and post until i hear from you and you have a chance to digest. This pic is a close up of the shunt, which hangs off battery B. The cable that I am holding in my finger is the cable coming from battery A, and so I believe this is the cable that is connecting the batteries in parallel. But it is on the load side of the shunt, and not the terminal side of the shunt. Not sure what impact that would have on the batteries being connected seamlessly, or on the Shunt giving an accurate measurement.

Also, that really heavy duty thick cable only goes from Terminal to shunt, and then back to the thinner gauge wire.

Also hanging off the positive terminal of battery B and the shunt are some really really thin coloured wires, one of which has a 2A glass inline fuse. I assume these are not current carrying per se but are the wires that run to the drifter and the setec to give instructions if you like.

Thanks
MRView media item 286

This is definatley wrong.

The load and charge cables should be connected on the load side of the shunt, but not the connection to the other battery, it should go directly to the negative terminal.

To give an idea of the cable size that should be used to connect the batteries in parallel, the one from the shunt to the terminal is about right.

 

[aspiremr]

This is definatley wrong.

The load and charge cables should be connected on the load side of the shunt, but not the connection to the other battery, it should go directly to the negative terminal.

To give an idea of the cable size that should be used to connect the batteries in parallel, the one from the shunt to the terminal is about right.

Thanks @Bellbirdweb , I thought as much, but am going to check with the more enlightened 12v experts before making any changes. So that may weel need to be the first chagne I make. Connect the batteries in parallel correctly with the negative to negative connection on the correct side of the shunt, and use heavier gauge cable to connect them.

Once I've done that, and complete the battery test as @mikerezny has explained to me, then I'll wait for a Sunny day to test what is happening with solar.

EDIT - Just to be sure, when I mentioned the moire enlightened 12V experts, I was reflecting on my complete lack of knowledge, not suggesting any of the people giving me advice were note as "enlightened" as other, please no offence intended. Thanks everyone for all the help.

MR

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
apologies for the slow response. We went off to Toorongo Falls first thing Friday. Spent the afternoon trying to extract the Falcon and the Penguin from mud that would make grease seem like a poor lubricant. Got the car out, but had to get RACV to recover the van.
Then spent Saturday watching and helping many others who also got bogged.
Then we found out that there would be a major storm, high winds, and possibly snow early Sunday. So at 5pm we pulled the pin and decided we didn't want to play camping any more this weekend.

These will be the sensing and power wires that go to your drifter. They don't have anything to do with you Setec unit.

By the way, do you have hard copies of your Setec and Drifter manuals? If not, they are easy to find online and it is well worth downloading them and printing them out. Then you have a good place to add your own notes.

You should also get a copy of the manual for your solar controller. Again, if you google the model you should easily find a pdf version of the manual.

cheers
Mike

Hi @mikerezny ,

Ouch, that sounds like hard work, but fun, those experiences are the ones I alway look back at and remember and laugh about. All good as long as no-one gets hurt and no expensive damage has happened.

No stress about the delay to reply, we are all out there doing stuff, appreciate the help whenever you can spare the time to give me input.

So the battery wiring appears to be wrong, albeit it is at least in parallel. But maybe not optimally wired in parallel.

I have the batteries at home, and a 60watt car globe, so will hook up and run those battery tests over the course of this week.

YEs, I do have the manuals for everything in the van, have downloaded them all, Setec, Drifter, Solar regulator (all two pages of it) etc.

Will put results of battery tests up toward the end of the week.

Would be really interested in your thoughts about what changes to make to the actually battery wiring before I barrel in and start anything.

My thoughts are heavier cable between batteries when in parallel. Shift connection between the two negative terminals so it is direct, and not on the wrong side of the shunt. And change the parallel connections so they are terminal to terminal direct and not via a connector at the point of the load cables going back to van. DOes that sound reasonable and worthwhile or not really justified?

THanks again.

 

[Bellbirdweb]

Thanks @Bellbirdweb going to check with the more enlightened 12v experts

I'll try not to get too offended by that. As I'm sure that was not the intent

Here is a pic of my 2nd battery with the cables I used to connect it to the main one.

I'm in the process of getting hold of a 400A shunt to replace the standard 100A one so when I install my new inverter I can still monitor the current on the drifter (inverter will pull up to 160A)

 

[aspiremr]

View attachment 56351
I'll try not to get too offended by that. As I'm sure that was not the intent

Here is a pic of my 2nd battery with the cables I used to connect it to the main one.

I'm in the process of getting hold of a 400A shunt to replace the standard 100A one so when I install my new inverter I can still monitor the current on the drifter (inverter will pull up to 160A)

Oops, did that come out wrong @Bellbirdweb . I was trying to say that everyone on here knows so much more than me and I appreciate all the expertise, was only meaning to compare my lack of knowledge with everyone else's. Sorry if it came out wrong, was meant as a compliment. D'oh!!

 

[Bellbirdweb]

Oops, did that come out wrong @Bellbirdweb . I was trying to say that everyone on here knows so much more than me and I appreciate all the expertise, was only meaning to compare my lack of knowledge with everyone else's. Sorry if it came out wrong, was meant as a compliment. D'oh!!

No probs @aspiremr, I was having s bit of fun.

 

[mikerezny]

Hi @mikerezny ,
My thoughts are heavier cable between batteries when in parallel. Shift connection between the two negative terminals so it is direct, and not on the wrong side of the shunt. And change the parallel connections so they are terminal to terminal direct and not via a connector at the point of the load cables going back to van. DOes that sound reasonable and worthwhile or not really justified?
THanks again.

Hi @aspiremr,
yeah, it was a bit of exitement. Now, I just keep going over in my head all the other ways I could have tackled the problem and not got myself into as much trouble as I did.
First lesson, don't make quick decisions.

Now, onto your problems.
I think all of us are in agreement with the following suggestions:

Spend the week giving the batteries a workout charging and discharging. Then you should be able to decide whether the batteries are still good enough to be reinstalled or not.
Make up or buy two heavy duty cables, as per the photo from @Bellbirdweb, about the same size as the heavy black wire from the -ve terminal to the shunt.

Completely remove the existing red / black cable connecting the two batteries.
The black one is easiest, just remove it from the terminal post of the shunt.
Remove the red one from the two-screw connector shown in one of the photos you posted: "Battery B parallel connection".

Reconnect the two batteries with the new red / black jumper cables,
reconnect the shunt to the -ve terminal of battery B, and
reconnect the red wires to the +ve terminal of Battery B.
(There is a slightly better way to do this step, but I would suggest leaving that to a later stage)

At that point, the batteries are now wired in parallel correctly. The wiring on the shunt is now correct and the current and voltage readings on your drifter panel should be correct. You will now get an accurate measurement of what is going into the battery from the solar panels and the Setec charger and out of the battery to your fridge and other 12V devices.

Between the drifter readings, the solar controller readings, and a multimeter, you should be able to get enough information to investigate the rest of your installation.

cheers
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
yeah, it was a bit of exitement. Now, I just keep going over in my head all the other ways I could have tackled the problem and not got myself into as much trouble as I did.
First lesson, don't make quick decisions.

Now, onto your problems.
I think all of us are in agreement with the following suggestions:

Spend the week giving the batteries a workout charging and discharging. Then you should be able to decide whether the batteries are still good enough to be reinstalled or not.
Make up or buy two heavy duty cables, as per the photo from @Bellbirdweb, about the same size as the heavy black wire from the -ve terminal to the shunt.

Completely remove the existing red / black cable connecting the two batteries.
The black one is easiest, just remove it from the terminal post of the shunt.
Remove the red one from the two-screw connector shown in one of the photos you posted: "Battery B parallel connection".

Reconnect the two batteries with the new red / black jumper cables,
reconnect the shunt to the -ve terminal of battery B, and
reconnect the red wires to the +ve terminal of Battery B.
(There is a slightly better way to do this step, but I would suggest leaving that to a later stage)

At that point, the batteries are now wired in parallel correctly. The wiring on the shunt is now correct and the current and voltage readings on your drifter panel should be correct. You will now get an accurate measurement of what is going into the battery from the solar panels and the Setec charger and out of the battery to your fridge and other 12V devices.

Between the drifter readings, the solar controller readings, and a multimeter, you should be able to get enough information to investigate the rest of your installation.

cheers
Mike

Hi All,
@mikerezny , sounds good. One question. If I am reconnecting the batteries with heavier cable etc, is it a better setup to have the load cables across the batteries, e.g.:

Shunt to negative terminal on battery B;
Red wires to positive terminal on battery A.

 

[mikerezny]

Hi All,
@mikerezny , sounds good. One question. If I am reconnecting the batteries with heavier cable etc, is it a better setup to have the load cables across the batteries, e.g.:

Shunt to negative terminal on battery B;
Red wires to positive terminal on battery A.

Hi @aspiremr,
that is exactly what I was referring to when I wrote:

(There is a slightly better way to do this step, but I would suggest leaving that to a later stage)

If you are comfortable doing that change at the same time as connecting the batteries in parallel correctly, then there is no other reason to do it later.

cheers
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

Hi All,

First observations of battery test.

Battery A on charge for a full day, Ctek charger tells me it's full.

Multi-meter reading immediately on taking charger off - 13.78 Volts.
After allowing the battery to sit for two hours with no load and no charge - 13.42 Volts.

Connected the 55watt car globe, as per attached pic. Tested voltage while still under load and after only a few moments of connection - dropped to 12.2.

Is that normal to drop that much when under load?

Pic of my load testing, as instructed by Mike and others. Thanks, quite proud of this little experiment. Probably quite sad, but it's fun trying new stuff. Much better than 9 to 5 grind sitting at a desk LOL.

View media item 289

 

[mikerezny]

Hi All,

First observations of battery test.

Battery A on charge for a full day, Ctek charger tells me it's full.

Multi-meter reading immediately on taking charger off - 13.78 Volts.
After allowing the battery to sit for two hours with no load and no charge - 13.42 Volts.

Connected the 55watt car globe, as per attached pic. Tested voltage while still under load and after only a few moments of connection - dropped to 12.2.

Is that normal to drop that much when under load?

Pic of my load testing, as instructed by Mike and others. Thanks, quite proud of this little experiment. Probably quite sad, but it's fun trying new stuff. Much better than 9 to 5 grind sitting at a desk LOL.

View media item 289

Hi @aspiremr,
yes, this can be all quite fun.

I wouldn't get too worried yet. You need to take the voltage measurement at the battery terminals.
Jot down the voltage readings every hour or so, until it gets down to 10V. Then remove the load, wait a few minutes and take the voltage reading again.

Do you remember how long it took before your charger said the battery was fully charged?

cheers
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

Hi @aspiremr,
yes, this can be all quite fun.

I wouldn't get too worried yet. You need to take the voltage measurement at the battery terminals.
Jot down the voltage readings every hour or so, until it gets down to 10V. Then remove the load, wait a few minutes and take the voltage reading again.

Do you remember how long it took before your charger said the battery was fully charged?

cheers
Mike

Charger went on about 3 pm yesterday, and at 9 am this morning charger read full.

When I am testing the voltage every hour to track battery discharge, do i leave the load connected while taking the readings?