Electrical Jayco Standard Electrics

mikerezny

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Sep 11, 2016
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HI @Boots in Action ,

I will definitely look really closely this weekend to determine if batteries are in series or parallel. Ive had a read of the Setec Manual. It is an ST35-III. It can provide 14.05v boost, 13.65v Float etc etc. Obviously that will never charge a 24volt system if it is fact wired in series.

I will take some much better photos.

This is almost a bit cool, I am starting to comprehend what the voltages mean and how they relate to the battery and system setup.

Thanks again everyone.
MR
Hi @aspiremr,
well done, you have made a good observation. I agree with you that it is most unlikely that the batteries are wired in series. But, do indeed check this out and convince yourself that indeed both +ve terminals are connected together (via the inline fuse) and that both -ve terminal are connected together (via the inline current shunt)

cheers
Mike
 
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mikerezny

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So @mikerezny , the shunt should not be connected inline between the cable that connects each of the negative terminals from each battery in parallel, but rather it should be in the negative cable leaving the batteries and heading off to the Caravan somewhere? And unless it is connected that way then any voltage readings on the Drifter panel will be unreliable - am i on the right track?

Hi @aspiremr ,
the only effect of this wiring fault will be that the current showing on the drifter panel will be incorrect. It should have no effect on the voltage shown on the drifter panel. The shunt has an extremely low resistance and its purpose is that any current going through it will result in a very small voltage drop which is sent to the drifter panel. This voltage is used to determine the current value that is shown on the drifter panel.

My suggestion, as per my previous email, is to not yet make any changes. It is imperative to understand how your van is currently wired up so you can determine what is and what is not working as it should. How this -ve wire from will not be the cause of your problems, it will just be causing the current values on the drifter panel to be wrong.

Does this make sense?

cheers
Mike
 

Bellbirdweb

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Jan 24, 2014
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Hi @aspiremr , if you put the positive of your charger onto the pos of the battery on the right and the neg of charger on neg of left battery, you would only be charging the right hand battery. There would be no current flow to the pos of left battery if fuse is blown. Ignore this if you used the POS on left battery and NEG on right battery.
Sorry but I disagree.

The ctek charger would not charge at all if the fuse was blown/ high resistance as they have a smart sensing circuit built in. It would charge both or none not one only.

Still not a great way to try and charge 2 very flat batteries. They need to be deep charged individually using the ctek recondition program.

I've seen quite a few batteries deemed to be not recoverable brought back from the dead.

These are not AGM they are VRLA gel cells. The Setec chargers do not charge at sufficient voltage to supply AGMs
 
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mikerezny

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Thanks @mikerezny

If take a voltage measurement on one of the batteries using my multimeter, but the two batteries are connected, won't the reading be affected by the second battery? Or is that not how it works?
Hi @aspiremr,
great question!

If the batteries are connected correctly then indeed the voltage readings across each battery will be the same.
If they are not connected (faulty wiring, blown fuse, loose connection, whatever) then you will find that out with the first test.

After you have convinced yourself that indeed you get the same voltage on both batteries, you can then proceed to just compare the reading on the drifter panel with the voltage you measure on the batteries.

What we are doing here is to check that the drifter panel is indeed giving an accurate reading of battery voltage.

cheers
Mike
 
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aspiremr

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Hi @aspiremr ,
the only effect of this wiring fault will be that the current showing on the drifter panel will be incorrect. It should have no effect on the voltage shown on the drifter panel. The shunt has an extremely low resistance and its purpose is that any current going through it will result in a very small voltage drop which is sent to the drifter panel. This voltage is used to determine the current value that is shown on the drifter panel.

My suggestion, as per my previous email, is to not yet make any changes. It is imperative to understand how your van is currently wired up so you can determine what is and what is not working as it should. How this -ve wire from will not be the cause of your problems, it will just be causing the current values on the drifter panel to be wrong.

Does this make sense?

cheers
Mike
@mikerezny , absolutely. A little knowledge is extremely dangerous. I will go out and try to get better photos, check some voltages with my multi meter, but am nowhere near having confidence yet to start changing things. Trying to make any changes with my small amount of knowledge at this stage will probably only accelerate my need to pay someone to fix the whole mess. My plan is to investigate, measure, report back, and then gradually make little changes one at a time.

The first apparently obvious change I think would be to simply upgrade the thickness of the cable connecting the batteries. But no rush, first to be absolutely certain they are in either parallel or series. Then, understand what other changes would make sense to do at the same time as that cable upgrade. Then test what is happening with Solar panels. Then maybe figure out how to put one of those gadgets that measure current drawn on the fridge circuit and observe. But nothing yet, still too much to investigate.

Baby steps. Use a generator when out in the van to get by in the meantime.

I would still ultimately like to install a proper battery charger and better solar regulator, and probably do that all in one hit with a Battery Management System. At the moment the solar regulator is next to the fridge, which must be multiple metres from the batteries. Everything I have read says no more than a metre distance to avoid too much voltage drop. But that can be the last cab off the rank once all the basic hygiene factors are investigated and sorted. Fun project, lots to learn, thanks so much for all the direction and guidance.

MR
 
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aspiremr

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Hi @aspiremr,
great question!

If the batteries are connected correctly then indeed the voltage readings across each battery will be the same.
If they are not connected (faulty wiring, blown fuse, loose connection, whatever) then you will find that out with the first test.

After you have convinced yourself that indeed you get the same voltage on both batteries, you can then proceed to just compare the reading on the drifter panel with the voltage you measure on the batteries.

What we are doing here is to check that the drifter panel is indeed giving an accurate reading of battery voltage.

cheers
Mike
Got it, ta.
 

mikerezny

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Sorry but I disagree.

The ctek charger would not charge at all if the fuse was blown/ high resistance as they have a smart sensing circuit built in. It would charge both or none not one only.
Hi @Bellbirdweb,
I don't think I have explained as well as I could have.

The actual setup is currently two batteries. Both batteries have their -ve terminals connected. BUT, the +ve terminal of one battery is connected to the +ve terminal of the other battery via an inline fuse. We were considering the situation where this fuse is blown. This effectively isolates each battery.

In that case, whether you put the +ve lead from the charger on one battery terminal or the other the charger will always see only one battery and will function correctly. But in this case only ONE battery will ever be charged.

Does this make more sense?

cheers
Mike
 
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Boots in Action

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Mar 13, 2017
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Sorry but I disagree.

The ctek charger would not charge at all if the fuse was blown/ high resistance as they have a smart sensing circuit built in. It would charge both or none not one only.

Still not a great way to try and charge 2 very flat batteries. They need to be deep charged individually using the ctek recondition program.

I've seen quite a few batteries deemed to be not recoverable brought back from the dead.

These are not AGM they are VRLA gel cells. The Setec chargers do not charge at sufficient voltage to supply AGMs

Hi @Bellbirdweb , I agree with you on the last 3 paragrapghs but cannot agree with you on the first, but I am happy to be enlightened. If there is NO circuit to the Positive of the left battery and only a connection to the Negative of the other left battery (albeit via a parallel Negative line) , how does the Ctek charger sense the anomoly?? Is it akin to the uneven voltage potential like the earth leakage system on household power systems?? I knew that "smart" chargers were getting very sophisticated, but was unaware that good chargers were that far advanced. Always willing to learn. Love this stuff!!! Cheers
 

mikerezny

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Sep 11, 2016
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@mikerezny , absolutely. A little knowledge is extremely dangerous. I will go out and try to get better photos, check some voltages with my multi meter, but am nowhere near having confidence yet to start changing things. Trying to make any changes with my small amount of knowledge at this stage will probably only accelerate my need to pay someone to fix the whole mess. My plan is to investigate, measure, report back, and then gradually make little changes one at a time.

The first apparently obvious change I think would be to simply upgrade the thickness of the cable connecting the batteries. But no rush, first to be absolutely certain they are in either parallel or series. Then, understand what other changes would make sense to do at the same time as that cable upgrade. Then test what is happening with Solar panels. Then maybe figure out how to put one of those gadgets that measure current drawn on the fridge circuit and observe. But nothing yet, still too much to investigate.

Baby steps. Use a generator when out in the van to get by in the meantime.

I would still ultimately like to install a proper battery charger and better solar regulator, and probably do that all in one hit with a Battery Management System. At the moment the solar regulator is next to the fridge, which must be multiple metres from the batteries. Everything I have read says no more than a metre distance to avoid too much voltage drop. But that can be the last cab off the rank once all the basic hygiene factors are investigated and sorted. Fun project, lots to learn, thanks so much for all the direction and guidance.

MR
Hi @aspiremr,
you are really getting on top of this.

Are you still going to take both batteries home as per your previous posting. If you are reluctant to do that yet , I could make a somewhat simpler suggestion:
Just remove the left hand battery. This is much easier than disturbing all the wiring on the right battery.
1: remove fuse from the inline fuseholder.
2: disconnect -ve lead from battery and tape up the lug.
3: disconnect +ve lead from battery and tape up the lug.
4: undo strap and remove battery.

Then you can take that battery home, charge, discharge, and recharge as per the earlier post. You just need to go find a 60W headlight globe and put a couple of wires on it to use as a load to do the discharge test.

easy peasy.

cheers
Mike
 

G Daddy

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Dec 6, 2015
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Hi @aspiremr , a couple of simple pic of typical battery wiring.

A Recommended for battery banks, some designs also include a fuse in the blue wire for protection in case one battery develops a internal short-circuit.
A
upload_2017-8-3_7-34-46.png

B The parallel connect below is in general use for 2 batteries. Can also have a fuse fitted in either the red or black cable between batteries for extra protection but not oven seen in practice.

B
upload_2017-8-3_7-36-24.png
 
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aspiremr

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Hi @aspiremr,
you are really getting on top of this.

Are you still going to take both batteries home as per your previous posting. If you are reluctant to do that yet , I could make a somewhat simpler suggestion:
Just remove the left hand battery. This is much easier than disturbing all the wiring on the right battery.
1: remove fuse from the inline fuseholder.
2: disconnect -ve lead from battery and tape up the lug.
3: disconnect +ve lead from battery and tape up the lug.
4: undo strap and remove battery.

Then you can take that battery home, charge, discharge, and recharge as per the earlier post. You just need to go find a 60W headlight globe and put a couple of wires on it to use as a load to do the discharge test.

easy peasy.

cheers
Mike
Hi @mikerezny ,

Yes, definitely going to bring both batteries home, fully charge using recondition mode, then find a load that i can apply and see what happens. Much easier to have a look at how batteries are behaving each night if they are at home with me.
 

Boots in Action

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Mar 13, 2017
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Hi @aspiremr , a couple of simple pic of typical battery wiring.

A Recommended for battery banks, some designs also include a fuse in the blue wire for protection in case one battery develops a internal short-circuit.
A
View attachment 56282
B The parallel connect below is in general use for 2 batteries. Can also have a fuse fitted in either the red or black cable between batteries for extra protection but not oven seen in practice.

B
View attachment 56283

Hi @G Daddy , referring to attachment "B" for parallel connections, I read somewhere it was preferable to have negative of charger on negative of other bank in lieu of same bank as Positive for charger - supposedly to even out distribution better. In practice, however, I cannot see how it would be different UNLESS there was a difference in resistance for the battery connections themselves.
 

G Daddy

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Dec 6, 2015
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Hi @Boots in Action, Exactly my thoughts, I can only see an advantage when connecting large numbers of batteries in parallel.
I think A would be preferred when using an inverter drawing 50amps plus for extended periods.
 
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Drover

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If anyone had read the link I supplied pages ago you would have had that info.............................I really think this rehashing whats been said and is just confusing the whole thing and to the uninitiated - or + VE is asking for trouble a simple Pos terminal or Neg terminal makes it near error proof as I have found over the years when explaining to folks over the phone "How To"......................keep it short and sweet, cut out the techno bable which I know is hard for the trained operator but the pupil's eye's will glaze over and youvé lost them.....I will now leave you to it, too many cooks.
 

Boots in Action

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If anyone had read the link I supplied pages ago you would have had that info.............................I really think this rehashing whats been said and is just confusing the whole thing and to the uninitiated - or + VE is asking for trouble a simple Pos terminal or Neg terminal makes it near error proof as I have found over the years when explaining to folks over the phone "How To"......................keep it short and sweet, cut out the techno bable which I know is hard for the trained operator but the pupil's eye's will glaze over and youvé lost them.....I will now leave you to it, too many cooks.

Hello @ Drover , @mikerezny , you are absolutely correct about too many cooks in the kitchen. In the heat of all this enthusiasm, one tends to get carried away with it all. There needs to be just ONE instructor for @aspiremr and therefore I am leaving that to the real boss - yes you @mikerezny . I will be monitoring the progress to satisfy my curiosity as to what were the problem/s and how you successfully overcame them. This "cook" just bowed out of that kitchen!! @G Daddy and I can battle on a bit with the solar thread as he is bringing up areas of concern for me which I wish to improve my knowledge on. Hope this helps everybody and thanks for the many communications.
 

Dobbie

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Jun 18, 2014
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For what it's worth....and to confirm what appears to be the standard for a 2017 installation for two batteries....our setup is B as above in parallel. But I'll check once again just to be sure and to avoid confusion....mine!

It now works beautifully after fluffing around with it but the newer 25 smart chargers come with temperature sensor probes, which we discovered when the terminals weren't perfectly fitted.

I also find the non Setec charging setup far better, having had three previous setecs in the past. They worked fine but I can understand the Projecta system far better....finally.

The solar is also very very efficient with little need to move panels, get too worried about capacity and efficacy.....so I'll stick with what I've got and understand.

and replace the old voltmeter...already ordered.

I applaud you guys for the detailed debate, discussion, whatever but I suspect, for those of us with some knowledge, but maybe not the depth of knowledge, that experience will override what we lack.

At least, I hope so!
 
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aspiremr

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If anyone had read the link I supplied pages ago you would have had that info.............................I really think this rehashing whats been said and is just confusing the whole thing and to the uninitiated - or + VE is asking for trouble a simple Pos terminal or Neg terminal makes it near error proof as I have found over the years when explaining to folks over the phone "How To"......................keep it short and sweet, cut out the techno bable which I know is hard for the trained operator but the pupil's eye's will glaze over and youvé lost them.....I will now leave you to it, too many cooks.
Thanks @Drover ,

I did read the link you posted earlier, and have also ordered a copy of the book from that website which I will study in due course. Thanks so much for all of your input.

I will continue to post as I follow the various suggestions on here, albeit it will be slow given my limited access to the van.

Regards
MR
 
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aspiremr

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Hello @ Drover , @mikerezny , you are absolutely correct about too many cooks in the kitchen. In the heat of all this enthusiasm, one tends to get carried away with it all. There needs to be just ONE instructor for @aspiremr and therefore I am leaving that to the real boss - yes you @mikerezny . I will be monitoring the progress to satisfy my curiosity as to what were the problem/s and how you successfully overcame them. This "cook" just bowed out of that kitchen!! @G Daddy and I can battle on a bit with the solar thread as he is bringing up areas of concern for me which I wish to improve my knowledge on. Hope this helps everybody and thanks for the many communications.
Hi @Boots in Action ,

Thanks for all the input. There is certainly a lot of info and assistance.

As a complete newbie in these matters, reading all the info does help, it takes some time, but reading and then re-reading and at some point the language starts to make sense, themes seem to emerge, and a logic flow through everyone's replies becomes evident.

Appreciate everyone who has offered advice. I will now work my way through the various suggestions, and report back as I do so, seeking confirmation of what I find and what it means.

Great forum to be able to get so much assistance, all given positively and gently for a 12v newbie like me.

Regards
MR
 

Drover

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Thanks @Drover ,

I did read the link you posted earlier, and have also ordered a copy of the book from that website which I will study in due course. Thanks so much for all of your input.

I will continue to post as I follow the various suggestions on here, albeit it will be slow given my limited access to the van.

Regards
MR

Hey mate, I will be sandbagging on the side, just getting too crowded but I'm always here if you need a hand just remember to look at the simple things first, most times the problem is just a simple fix.
 

Bellbirdweb

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Jan 24, 2014
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Hi @Bellbirdweb , I agree with you on the last 3 paragrapghs but cannot agree with you on the first, but I am happy to be enlightened. If there is NO circuit to the Positive of the left battery and only a connection to the Negative of the other left battery (albeit via a parallel Negative line) , how does the Ctek charger sense the anomoly?? Is it akin to the uneven voltage potential like the earth leakage system on household power systems?? I knew that "smart" chargers were getting very sophisticated, but was unaware that good chargers were that far advanced. Always willing to learn. Love this stuff!!! Cheers
If the +ve from the charger is connected on battery 1 and the -ve on battery 2, the circuit must be complete for the charger to start charging.

If you attached the charger +ve and -ve on the same battery, they what you say would be correct.