Your Lithium Battery Set Up

Walks

Member
Sep 15, 2013
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Melbourne
Anyone using lithium batteries in there caravan?

Having an ongoing debate on another forum and im Interested in the following

What Brand:
How many batteries:
What Ah:
Direct Drop in replacement or custom job:
Did you need custom chargers, what type brand:
Cost fully installed:
Your general experience and level of satisfaction:

For the record I'm installing in my Van
Fusion, 1 or 2 still a little undecided, 2x 100ah or 1 x 200Ah, Direct drop in replacement, Runs of all existing charge and solar gear, $2500, I haven't installed yet but the couple of people I have spoken with who have used the same set up for almost 6 months are very happy.
 

Burnsy

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2012
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Hi Walks....Ok I'm no techs pert and I'm sure you'd know but with what I've heard and read about lithium is do not charge unattended in case of fires? What about insurance policies.....do they allow?
Cheers.
 

Walks

Member
Sep 15, 2013
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Melbourne
Hi Walks....Ok I'm no techs pert and I'm sure you'd know but with what I've heard and read about lithium is do not charge unattended in case of fires? What about insurance policies.....do they allow?
Cheers.

It really depends on the type of Lithium. Most/All caravan batteries should use LiFePO4 batteries which are relatively safe. I have a video of a LiFePO4 being intentionally severely overcharged to see what the result is. It first starts expanding and gets very hot, hot enough to start to melt the plastic case after a few minutes of having 30V put into it it finally it explodes what looks like white smoke but is actually only a harmless gas by product of the chemical reaction. After another minute or so no gasses and the battery is essentially finished. there is never a spark or fire and the gas is not harmfull. Basically its not dangerous.

I then have another video of a different lithium put under similar but less stress and it is very entertaining and ends up like a fire works display.

Still waiting to receive the vids via my email and then I'll upload them ;)

Really just interested in what everyone else is using. A little bit of market research really.
 
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Walks

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Sep 15, 2013
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So what is the key advantage? I assume weight, but anything else? Seems $$$ to me.

They are far superior in every single way. Lighter, can be charged/discharged at a higher rate, maintains a steady voltage of around 13v until its got about 10% capacity left, 100Ah of lithium will have as much useable power as a 200Ah agm, more cycle lives, don't self discharge like AGM.

But they are expensive.

Looking forward to putting mine in when the van arrives. 1st of November is the date :) Problem is I can't compare it's performance in the van to an AGM because I've never used an agm in it. I might use a 100Ah AGM on a different trip so I can compare
 
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Brettmc

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Oct 18, 2012
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I noticed on the Setec unit today that you can only attach lead acid batteries, are you using a different charger.
 

Walks

Member
Sep 15, 2013
84
34
18
Melbourne
I noticed on the Setec unit today that you can only attach lead acid batteries, are you using a different charger.

Na the lithium batteries I will have an inbuilt BMS that makes them a direct drop in replacement for an AGM.

No need to change a thing, will work as if it's an AGM but with all the benifits of a lithium.
 

The Wadamses

Active Member
Jan 13, 2014
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Tassie (near Launceston)
Hi Walks (& other lithium users!)
Love to hear how your batteries are going.. We're seriously considering a Lithium setup for all the reasons you've identified.
Really appreciate it if any of you have a mo to share your experience please?
 

The Wadamses

Active Member
Jan 13, 2014
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Tassie (near Launceston)
Cheers, HM
They cost, for sure, but I figure over the price of a new van, it's a relatively small percentage it's adding to the final tally for what seems to be fairly serious payoff. We want to run a 2000W psw inverter which is going to require an enormous amount of kilos in AVG batteries & solar; lithium are 25% of that weight max in addition to the better power supply.

As @Walks posted earlier in this thread: Expense aside, "they are far superior in every single way. Lighter, can be charged/discharged at a higher rate, maintains a steady voltage of around 13v until its got about 10% capacity left, 100Ah of lithium will have as much useable power as a 200Ah agm, more cycle lives, don't self discharge like AGM. "
 
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yabbietol

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Sep 2, 2014
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We have ordered 200Ah Lithium battery option with our new Kedron. It is not cheap, but it is about ½ the weight of 240Ah AGM. It also has much more capacity in the sense that it can be discharged to about 20% of capacity without significant harm, they therefore provide 180Ah (160Ah if cautious) of usable power compared to the 120Ah for the 240Ah AGM (50% discharge).
Lithium Phosphate batteries are the heaviest lithiums (28Kg for 200Ah, but vs about 70Kg for 240Ah AGM), but one of the safest and robust and still a lot lighter than AGM. Depending on depth of discharge and number of charging cycles you can expect about 10 years+ from a well managed lithium battery system.
The set up kedron use is from Enerdrive, which appears to be an established reputable firm. I have rung Enedrive up and spoke to their technical staff and found them very helpful and knowledgable. You can get cheaper Lithium battery systems, but Kedron only install Enedrive during construction and they seem happy with them.
http://enerdrive.com.au/product/200ah-slim-lithium-battery-12v/
The installed system includes Battery Management System (BMS), DC to DC converter, Charger, and battery system monitor. I have asked around and Kedron have only been installing the system this year and only in new caravans so far, but every one who has got back to me seems very happy.

So in about 5 or 6 weeks we will begin testing a Lithium Battery System, hopefully it will be worth the extra money.
 

yabbietol

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Sep 2, 2014
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T
thanks @yabbietol, good info. I would expect Kedron given their reputation would only be installing quality units.
So not long now before the new van arrives, must be exciting.
Thanks waiting since January has been hard, but not long now.
The wait had one advantage it gave us time to think about options and do some research. Hence all the info on Lithium batteries.
 

ShaneT

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Jul 24, 2014
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Have been running lithium for just over 2 years now, started with 100amp pack in the swan then added another 100amp pack to make 200amps in the basestation. (100amp pack is 4 cells)
I use the Winston cells from ev works and the bms and cell balancers from ev power.

The best thing with lithium besides the huge weight saving and the very long life is that they will suck all the charge they can until they are 100% full there is no multi step charging needed which is a waste of solar output . Also even at high current draw (say 50amps) they will give you 99% of there amp/h unlike a standard battery where you will only get 25%.
Just buy a programmable solar reg so you can set your own voltages and your good to go.
My system consists of
3x 120w solar
8x 100amp/h cells
8x cell balancers
1x BMS
1x victron bmv700
and a voltronic 420 and lcd (set to lead acid 14.4v, not lithium 15.1v as there is no gain in charging them that high)

With my 200amp/h I can run the 215 compressor fridge run the toaster and coffee machine and boil the eggs on the electric hot plate and once my extra 420w of solar goes on I am going to use the relay output of the bmv700 to heat my hot water when the batteries are full.

My dingo 20/20 solar reg has just got here so will soon be running that with a solid state relay so I can put my 780watt of solar through it and set my own charge voltages and charge stages to get even more out of the lithium.

When going lithium you really need the bmv 700 as lithium will hold its voltage most of the way through its discharge, so the only way you can tell how much power you have left is to count the amps going in and out through a shunt.
Sorry its all over the place but im really tired.
 
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The Wadamses

Active Member
Jan 13, 2014
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That's a whole lot of info that's easy to follow for someone who's tired, ShaneT. Thanks!
The big question.. are you happy with it? Work better for you than AGM setup?
Am assuming yes from the way you've said 'best thing', but don't want to be making assumptions;)
Cost aside and being able to read how much charge, any other advantages you've found in the 'old' system?
 

ShaneT

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Jul 24, 2014
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That's a whole lot of info that's easy to follow for someone who's tired, ShaneT. Thanks!
The big question.. are you happy with it? Work better for you than AGM setup?
Am assuming yes from the way you've said 'best thing', but don't want to be making assumptions;)
Cost aside and being able to read how much charge, any other advantages you've found in the 'old' system?

I am very happy with my setup, but I should of have just gone straight to a 200amp/h (4x 200amp cells) instead of having started with 100amp then adding another 100amp later, just because I wouldn't have to set the system up twice.
As for working better than AGM just think of your old cordless tools or R/C toys you had 10 years ago and compare them to the lithium powered ones now. While they weren't AGM powered they were Ni-Cd and NiMH which are miles ahead of lead acid anyway.
 

ShaneT

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Jul 24, 2014
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Hi @ShaneT ,
you have done bloody well getting all that down at 1am!
Question for you....apologies in advance, lithium novice here!
So if I understand correctly you have 8 cells (25a/h) hooked up in parallel . Therefore you need a Cell Balancer?? am I right in saying that if you buy the large fully integrated 200a/h for example, the Cell Balancer is generally built in. Which BMS did you use?
Has it been tricky doing all of this on an existing van as opposed to at construction. I am looking at a new van in the next 12 months, and can do it myself, but wondered if it would be pretty difficult post production. The main things I was thinking would be difficult is any increasing in cable size to cope with the much higher Currents.

Nope 8x 25amp cells in parallel would give me a 3.2volt 200amp/h battery.
At the moment I have 2 battery packs each 4x 100amp cells in series which gives me a 12.8v 100amp/h battery
1 lithium cell no matter its amp/h rating is 3.2 volts
Lithium cells generally doesn't level them selves out with the other cells around it, and every cell is just a tiny tiny bit different to the next.
So say when charging to 14.4v one cell takes in a little bit more power than the rest so you have 3 cells at 3.58v and one a 3.66 which = 14.4v then next charge 3 are a 3.56 and one is at 3.72 see how one is running away? It will keep doing this until it starts to get overcharged (4.2v+) and then die very quickly.
What a cell balancer is just place a small load (1amp) on that cell when to goes over 3.6 volts, so it will try and hold that cell at 3.6 volts while the other cells catch up.
Brought packs should have some sort of BMS The only brought packs that I would buy would be theses, but that's just my opinion http://www.ev-power.com.au/-EV-Powerpak-Custom-LFP-Batteries-.html
I run this BMS http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/ind...units-1/12v-lifepo4-battery-control-unit.html
You do not have to change any cables, lithium can put out much higher amps but only if you want it. amps is different to voltage.
If you have say a 12v 8amp water pump and you hook it up to a 24v 10amp/h battery, the pump will get 24v and blow up.
You hook up that same water pump to a 12v 1 billion amp/h battery that water pump will still only draw 12v 8amps.
The only cables I am changing is my solar as I am going from 360w to 780w +
With a lithium battery it will quite happily run you 3000w inverter and give you 99amps out of your 100amp battery over and over again. Do that to your AGM and you may get 25amps out of it and you wont be able to do it very many times before the battery is stuffed.
Just a bit of extra info, If you drain your agm down to 70% dod (only 30%left) you should be able to do it around 600-700 times do the same to a lithium and you should be able to do it 5000 times.
 

yabbietol

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2014
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Thanks @ShaneT,
I assumed the cells were 12v, didn't realise they were 3.2V. Good info mate appreciate it.
Why go with 3.2V cells and not 12V cells??
The EV Power cell prices seem very good.
Some useful info:
Most batteries are made up cells and to achieve a particular voltage you just add cells. The voltage of the cell is dependent on the chemistry of the battery hence lead acid and lithium batteries have different number of cells. Typically lead acid batteries have 6 cells for 12v and 12 cells for 24V while typically lithium batteries have 4 cells for 12V and 8 cells for 24V. Most commercial batteries we buy are made up of cells in series for our particular need in a commercial box or container, for example a 12V AGM caravan battery is just a box of 6 cells.

A bit of battery history, the old Telstra telephone exchanges used lots of 2.2V batteries each weighing about 70kg in series and people would buy 6 or 12 of them second hand for their domestic off grid solar systems, depending if you system was 12V, 6 Telstra 2.2V lead acid batteries or 12 if it was 24V. Classically in a torch you have several dry cells to get the voltage to make the lamp (or LED) glow for example 2 D cells for 3.4v globe, or 3 D cells for 5V globe. So you add cells in series of a particular chemistry to get near the voltage you need, usually just over the required voltage. Hence 12V batteries of any chemistry are hardly ever 12.0V when fully charged they are usually 1 or 2 volts over.

Hope this helps
Regards
Terry
 

ShaneT

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2014
291
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Agree with all of the above
I have a few of those big 2v led acid cells, I will ses if my new phone will put a pic up.
Have a look at any car battery, you will see 6 caps on top, this is how you fill each cell with acid.
 

Redbarn

Member
May 4, 2013
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I'll share my experience, I have a custom 400AH lifepo4 system in my van. We provide medical services in outback communities and remote areas and need reliable 12v power. the 200AH AGM (100AH useable, even then high loads at 100% SOC caused dreadful voltage drop) we had was only useful (mainly to get the tare weight) in full sun for a few hours. for the same weight and size we now have 400AH usable than can take large power draw. I had a a custom BMS unit made which utilises my 25AMP CETEK 240V charger, the 2 x CTEK 250S Dual chargers matched to a CETEK smartpass (stock SETEK unit charger) has an inbuilt cooling fan that activates at 50c all modified to be able to take 240v, alternator & solar concurrently up to 80amps (max rating of the smartpass) all contained in a custom box with custom electronics. The Lithium setup is much more efficient when charging, in similar circumstances we can get to 100% (4 x the AGM amount) in less than a third of the time it took with the AGM when on Solar - 495w roof, 120w portable. With lithium the voltage never drops below 12v, even at 5% SOC it is at 12.2v, the custom BMS box monitors each cell bank, will disconnect charging automatically when 99% SOC (this is a safety setting as you really don't need 100% SOC when you have 400AH) and disconnect all non critical 12v load at 20% and all load at 5% (all programmable) it can't over or undercharge, however we have not been able to use more that 53% currently, this is utilising inverters, satellite video comms & internet services, slide out external compressor fridge, foxtel, vast tv, coffee machine, thermomix, microwave and our air conditioner for a few hours if its too hot. we use a Victron 700 to monitor the bank and 2 x cell monitors, one close to the banks under the bed, one easily viewable in the van, this shows each individual cell voltage and will sound an alarm for over or under charge or if they drift out of balance. We have never had to balance the cells, they are constantly within 7mv of each other, this is testament to a well designed system.

The difference is like analogue to digital. I highly recommend but consider it as a system not a battery as it is much more sophisticated than lead acid. they are much more robust, you don't need a maintenance charge while stored or any other special treatment between uses, just use them and let the BMS charge when it thinks it needs it. Most of the packaged, sealed lithium units I found when I was researching last year were expensive per AH and didn't have cell balancing or very sophisticated BMS which means if 1 cell fails you have to throw the whole unit away, if you build up a cell based system with BMS, monitoring and cell balancing, should a cell fail you can inexpensively replace just that cell.

I couldn't be happier. Happy to recommend the guy that did my work, pm me for details.

Cheers
Rob
 

ShaneT

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2014
291
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single cell battery
 

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ShaneT

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Jul 24, 2014
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We have never had to balance the cells, they are constantly within 7mv of each other, this is testament to a well designed system.
It also has a lot to do with your charging voltage, do you know what the bulk charge voltage is? 13.8v?
Its only during the last, at the most 2 or 3% of charging that cell voltages start to rapidly rise and things start to run away from you, which I think that is why your designer disconnects at 99% charged.
I have just learnt about the above from someone very smart (off the caravan forum) and I am now changing my solar reg to suit his finding. although it works very well now I need a new reg for my extra solar anyway.
 
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