Starcraft Outback 18.55-3 Yabbietol = Terry and Ellie

[yabbietol]

That's rough @yabbietol, it sure seems Jayco stuffed up and I agree you did the right thing to walk away and start over. But it made me go out and check the plate on out new Journey 17-55 OB but it checked out at 157 Kg empty and max 207 Kg. It has the Jtech suspension but no extended draw bar. I am happy with that.

Thanks for the support and good wishes from yourself @chartrock and everyone on the forum including the helpful phone calls from @ACTraveller .

@chartrock I really appreciate you posting your Empty Ball Mass from the compliance plate on the 17.55 OB as it is on our short list. We are seriously looking at it as an option.

Also I appreciate @achjimmy comment about load shifting, something that makes me feel we made the correct call even if the weight was below 250Kg after shifting the batteries and reducing it to 243Kg.

PS @Drover if you are around Queanbeyan call in for a cuppa anyway as I would love to see your setup and maybe pick your brain. Email me if you are near to check we are home.

 

[yabbietol]

First question can I rename this thread or should I start a new one?

We have been doing much thinking and reading about different models of Jayco Outbacks. We still want to get an Outback if feasible.
The Starcraft outback 16.51-3 is the current lead contender.

Does any one have any comments about this single axel model. We did prefer a dual axel van, but that looks unlikely now. Our upgraded rear Pajero suspension should easily cope with single axel. Also have been looking at a tyre pressure monitoring system for our 4Wd for some time and adding two van tyre sensors is a only a marginal cost and a lot of safety.

Unless Jayco surprise us with their 2015 models, we are still reluctant to order from factory and would be looking at buying off the lot after reading the compliance plate, probably a 2014 model purchased around Febuary in 2015.

My research has shown the compliance plate for the 2014 model 16.51-3 is often 1925Kg Tare and around 191Kg ball weight. As this van is single axel the payload it can carry is 375Kg. Therefore the ATM would be about 2.3t, which means the Pajero can legally tow it.
However:
Two 82l water tanks = 164kg
Two 9Kg gas bottles full ~ 36Kg
Hot water heater tank 22l = 22kg
Load before we add anything to standard van 222Kg leaving 153Kg for our stuff.
We think this might be manageable for the 2 of us, if we are careful as we are use to travelling light when we tented it a lot.

Any suggestions or thoughts about single axel 16.51-3?

A bit off topic but, some simple, but not cheap weight saving may be made by replacing the standard ~30Kg battery with a Lithium battery 100ah ~10Kg (40Ah ~6Kg and can withstand a deeper % discharge) and replacing the standard solar panel (~12Kg per 120w panel) with flexible solar panels 2x100W ~ 2x2Kg=4kg. A total weight saving of ~30Kg, but at considerable short term expense +$1200 (40Ah Lithium+2 flexible 100W panels), but in long term it may be cheaper (as Lithium batteries have deeper discharge tolerance and many more cycles that Lead acid). This does not seem a lot of weight saving, but it is ~ 20%+ more payload. Also better value weight saving can be made with 40Ah or 70 Ahr Lithium battery replacement rather than solar panels. Hopefully, these new technologies will get cheaper in the next couple of years.

 

[Drover]

and that is why I haven't put my 14 over the scales, it has the same weights before we chuck our stuff in. Not to mention that the thing is supposed to have a tare ball weight of 89kg, lol,lol,lol.

 

[chartrock]

and that is why I haven't put my 14 over the scales, it has the same weights before we chuck our stuff in. Not to mention that the thing is supposed to have a tare ball weight of 89kg, lol,lol,lol.

My unloaded ball weight was stamped at 107 Kg but when I had it in for service they weighed it for me (fully loaded). It was 213 Kg so that's when I decided to shift the spare and that brought it back to 172 Kg.

Those front boots hold a lot.

 

[twscoot]

That's rough @yabbietol, it sure seems Jayco stuffed up and I agree you did the right thing to walk away and start over. But it made me go out and check the plate on out new Journey 17-55 OB but it checked out at 157 Kg empty and max 207 Kg. It has the Jtech suspension but no extended draw bar. I am happy with that.

Just a thought for others. I'd invest in a $60 set of towball weight scales. My ball weight was way (weigh!) over the original plated max ball weight. I sold my much loved Pajero as I knew I needed to tow well over 2500kg with a ball weight over 180kg.
Fill your tanks ( gas and water) and get a reading.
The full story of my van is here.
http://www.expandasdownunder.com/threads/compliance-plates-stating-max-towball-weight.3930/

 

[achjimmy]

Terry

Is that the 16 with the rear ensuite? It's a good layout.

These are my thoughts on the single axle vans based on owning two. The last had way to little "headroom" on the payload for my liking in the end. The current use of JTech should help alleviate it a little. Our van had the leaf springs and We had an ATM of 2080kg with 145kg ball. The 50 mm square axles are rated to 2000kg and the springs the same, in 12months the spring sagged enough to drop it about 40mm, in looking at the spring specs from ALKO and others 7 leaf were 2000kg MAX so we were again on the limit. One rim eventually cracked, again the rim had 1000kg payload limit and we did nothing untoward to crack the rim. jayco had fitted a much higher quality light truck AT to our 15"s so I suspect they had concerns about the ATM as well but these still only had 1080kg limit as 15"s don't go much higher.

So when it came time to change I was pretty keen to get on to four wheels, but it helped I liked the layout. If I was considering that 16' van. I would want to know what the JTech is rated too, if it's like 2500kg great, tbh an axle /bearing failure is the least likely of the possible scenarios IMO, leaf spring, rim, tyre failure the most likely. Also go the 16" rims. The tyre loading is much higher on 16"s over 15"s and again check the rim loading and the tyre loading. You can get mine spec sunrasyias 16"s that are rated to about 1500kg. Those with some quality LTs will be bullet proof .

FYI I ran a tyredog TPMS on all trips. Great peace of mind, once returning from sheepyard flat on a crazy hot day. The over temp alarm went off on the van. I stopped checked the tyres and let them cool a little. A fellow forum member who didn't have the benefit of a TPMS blew a tyre on the same trip home on the same day! Don't think you could find a better $400 investment IMO.

Hope above doesn't put you off Terry, it's not my intention. Just to forearm you with info.

Good luck.

 

[yabbietol]

Terry

Is that the 16 with the rear ensuite? It's a good layout.

These are my thoughts on the single axle vans based on owning two. The last had way to little "headroom" on the payload for my liking in the end. The current use of JTech should help alleviate it a little. Our van had the leaf springs and We had an ATM of 2080kg with 145kg ball. The 50 mm square axles are rated to 2000kg and the springs the same, in 12months the spring sagged enough to drop it about 40mm, in looking at the spring specs from ALKO and others 7 leaf were 2000kg MAX so we were again on the limit. One rim eventually cracked, again the rim had 1000kg payload limit and we did nothing untoward to crack the rim. jayco had fitted a much higher quality light truck AT to our 15"s so I suspect they had concerns about the ATM as well but these still only had 1080kg limit as 15"s don't go much higher.

So when it came time to change I was pretty keen to get on to four wheels, but it helped I liked the layout. If I was considering that 16' van. I would want to know what the JTech is rated too, if it's like 2500kg great, tbh an axle /bearing failure is the least likely of the possible scenarios IMO, leaf spring, rim, tyre failure the most likely. Also go the 16" rims. The tyre loading is much higher on 16"s over 15"s and again check the rim loading and the tyre loading. You can get mine spec sunrasyias 16"s that are rated to about 1500kg. Those with some quality LTs will be bullet proof .

FYI I ran a tyredog TPMS on all trips. Great peace of mind, once returning from sheepyard flat on a crazy hot day. The over temp alarm went off on the van. I stopped checked the tyres and let them cool a little. A fellow forum member who didn't have the benefit of a TPMS blew a tyre on the same trip home on the same day! Don't think you could find a better $400 investment IMO.

Hope above doesn't put you off Terry, it's not my intention. Just to forearm you with info.

Good luck.

Thanks @achjimmy this is really useful information.

It is the 16ft with the full rear ensuite, and is almost the same as the 18ft, but no space for washing machine. I did however find on caravans plus a small twin tub washing machine for about $150 which weighs 11kg and would fit in the back of the Pajero to be taken along only for long trips. So it may solve the washing machine deficiency in the 16ft, which could keep us both happy.

http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=9131

So now to the more important technical stuff. Unfortunately, the 16.51-3 Starcraft Outback is probably the heaviest single axle Jayco.

As we would be looking at an ATM of 2.3t on a single axle (about 2,300 - 200= 2,100) giving a GVM of about 2.1t, certainly over 1000kg per side. This would be the static load on the axle and wheels. So the rating of the JTEC suspension, plus wheel rims and tyres should all exceed this by a reasonable safety margin. I take your point about the 16" wheels better at higher load than the 15" wheels

I would hope that the engineers at Jayco would design the whole suspension system on the single axel vans to take a legal load plus a decent safety margin. However, your experience with the conventional Jayco suspension on a single axel does ring some alarm bells.

I guess some questions I have for Jayco when they come back after Xmas break are:
1. What is the rated load of the single axel JTEC suspension?
2. What is the load rating of the 15" rims and 15" tyres?

As I plan to buy off the lot getting 16" wheels as an option is not likely. Buying some decent 16" Light Truck Tyres (e.g. Kumo) and higher rated 16" alloy rims may be an option, but of course buying three tyres and rims after buying a new van would cost a quite few $ when they become scarce.

The tyre pressure monitoring system has been something I have been thinking about for years as BFGs cost about $350 fitted and two tyre saves on the 4WD would pay for the monitoring system and also give you a lot of extra safety when towing. I have had a flat on my old single axel Avan on a rough dirt road and did not notice till I stopped and luckily caught it in time to save the tyre and not have a blowout. I am looking at the Tyredog and the Doran (LMS Qld are agent) have not decided which, both look good and get good reviews and are similar prices.

You have not put me off, but have given me even more stuff to think about and reminded me why I did order a dual axel caravan.

Thanks
Terry

 

[yabbietol]

Terry

Is that the 16 with the rear ensuite? It's a good layout.

These are my thoughts on the single axle vans based on owning two. The last had way to little "headroom" on the payload for my liking in the end. The current use of JTech should help alleviate it a little. Our van had the leaf springs and We had an ATM of 2080kg with 145kg ball. The 50 mm square axles are rated to 2000kg and the springs the same, in 12months the spring sagged enough to drop it about 40mm, in looking at the spring specs from ALKO and others 7 leaf were 2000kg MAX so we were again on the limit. One rim eventually cracked, again the rim had 1000kg payload limit and we did nothing untoward to crack the rim. jayco had fitted a much higher quality light truck AT to our 15"s so I suspect they had concerns about the ATM as well but these still only had 1080kg limit as 15"s don't go much higher.

So when it came time to change I was pretty keen to get on to four wheels, but it helped I liked the layout. If I was considering that 16' van. I would want to know what the JTech is rated too, if it's like 2500kg great, tbh an axle /bearing failure is the least likely of the possible scenarios IMO, leaf spring, rim, tyre failure the most likely. Also go the 16" rims. The tyre loading is much higher on 16"s over 15"s and again check the rim loading and the tyre loading. You can get mine spec sunrasyias 16"s that are rated to about 1500kg. Those with some quality LTs will be bullet proof .

FYI I ran a tyredog TPMS on all trips. Great peace of mind, once returning from sheepyard flat on a crazy hot day. The over temp alarm went off on the van. I stopped checked the tyres and let them cool a little. A fellow forum member who didn't have the benefit of a TPMS blew a tyre on the same trip home on the same day! Don't think you could find a better $400 investment IMO.

Hope above doesn't put you off Terry, it's not my intention. Just to forearm you with info.

Good luck.

Since previous posting I have done some more research on the web on tyre load ratings.
A great deal depends on the load rating of the tyres (plus other suspension parts) especially in a single axel caravan, as you have mentioned. I have had trouble finding out what is the load rating of the tyres Jayco supply. So calculations below are a bit of a guess.

For example if the load rating is 110 a tyre can take a load of 1060Kg, 110 is a typical load rating for cheaper 15" tyres, a typical 16" tyre load rating is 120 can so they support 1400Kgs. Therefore, the typical 16" tyre has a nice safety margin in load for most caravans. Below is a useful link for tyre load rating.
http://www.bobjane.com.au/info/load-index-speed-symbol/

Suppose the 16ft single axel had the 15" tyre with a load rating of 110 and given a tare of 1920Kg.
You have a weight of 1054Kg per side (ATM - tow ball = GVM of 2108Kg which is then divided by 2) calculated from the Jayco 2014 brochure weights for the 16.51-3. Therefore, depending on your ball weight the load per tyre can be very close to the load rating of the tyre if it is 110. Jayco caravans often exceed the published tare, GVM and ATM; they are usually heavier than published figures. So the tyre load (rating if too low) could be a critical point of failure.

It may be very close in the 16.51-3 for the 15" tyre if it has a load rating of 110 or below. It should be fine with a typical 16" tyre load rating. A key question is what is the load rating of the 15" tyre that come on the 16ft single axel vans?

 

[achjimmy]

Terry

When I looked some years ago, the only 15" s that had a better load rating than 1060kg was a special BFG AT 31x10.5x15"s and they were horrendously expensive. Since then they no longer seem to be available only the standard 31x10.5x15"s with 1060kg load rating.

The axle loading should be on the compliance plate, it is on our SC it's 2667kg.

Why not order a new van? Just request all your specs and if they don't meet them walk? Or if you find a stock van request the 16" upgrade and the new compliance plate to cover the tyres, otherwise you have to make sure the wheel upgrade fits within the rules ?

 

[yabbietol]

Terry

When I looked some years ago, the only 15" s that had a better load rating than 1060kg was a special BFG AT 31x10.5x15"s and they were horrendously expensive. Since then they no longer seem to be available only the standard 31x10.5x15"s with 1060kg load rating.

The axle loading should be on the compliance plate, it is on our SC it's 2667kg.

Why not order a new van? Just request all your specs and if they don't meet them walk? Or if you find a stock van request the 16" upgrade and the new compliance plate to cover the tyres, otherwise you have to make sure the wheel upgrade fits within the rules ?

Thanks Jim
I still have to confirm the rating of the Jayco 15" tyres, but I suspect they are as you say rated to around 1060Kg which is cutting it a bit fine. They will not be legal on a slightly overweight single axel caravan, but with a dual axel caravan the 15" tyres well and truly cover the load they need to carry. Very good point about 16" wheels needing to match the compliance plate.

I am not keen to order a new van and then wait six months and walk again. We have just done that, once is disappointing enough. In the new year I will explore what can be done through Jayco dealers and upgrading to 16" wheels on the 16.51-3 from their stock on lots, but not sure how they will react, hopefully in a positive and helpful way. Based on my previous unfortunate experience with the excessive empty tow ball weight (263Kg!) on the 18ft no matter what caravan we buy we will be reading the compliance plate, the weigh bridge certificate and use our own tow ball scale to check tow ball weight. The correct and safe load rating of the axel, rims and tyres will also be very important to us.

This excellent forum's information is preparing us for the upcoming purchase negotiations, with the knowledge provided and cash we we should do OK.

Regards
Terry

 

[Drover]

Actually the load rating of the tyre must be the same or more than the rating of the suspension, over 2t I'd be wanting a 16" rim as the availability of LT tyres is better, can't really see the value of an off road type for a trailer, it's not driven so the fancy tread doesn't really do much other than look good and cost more.
Bob Jane for the load rating and other tyre/wheel stuff as I've mentioned before www.carbible.com

 

[coled1970]

Thanks @achjimmy this is really useful information.

It is the 16ft with the full rear ensuite, and is almost the same as the 18ft, but no space for washing machine. I did however find on caravans plus a small twin tub washing machine for about $150 which weighs 11kg and would fit in the back of the Pajero to be taken along only for long trips. So it may solve the washing machine deficiency in the 16ft, which could keep us both happy.

http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=9131

So now to the more important technical stuff. Unfortunately, the 16.51-3 Starcraft Outback is probably the heaviest single axle Jayco.

As we would be looking at an ATM of 2.3t on a single axle (about 2,300 - 200= 2,100) giving a GVM of about 2.1t, certainly over 1000kg per side. This would be the static load on the axle and wheels. So the rating of the JTEC suspension, plus wheel rims and tyres should all exceed this by a reasonable safety margin. I take your point about the 16" wheels better at higher load than the 15" wheels

I would hope that the engineers at Jayco would design the whole suspension system on the single axel vans to take a legal load plus a decent safety margin. However, your experience with the conventional Jayco suspension on a single axel does ring some alarm bells.

I guess some questions I have for Jayco when they come back after Xmas break are:
1. What is the rated load of the single axel JTEC suspension?
2. What is the load rating of the 15" rims and 15" tyres?

As I plan to buy off the lot getting 16" wheels as an option is not likely. Buying some decent 16" Light Truck Tyres (e.g. Kumo) and higher rated 16" alloy rims may be an option, but of course buying three tyres and rims after buying a new van would cost a quite few $ when they become scarce.

The tyre pressure monitoring system has been something I have been thinking about for years as BFGs cost about $350 fitted and two tyre saves on the 4WD would pay for the monitoring system and also give you a lot of extra safety when towing. I have had a flat on my old single axel Avan on a rough dirt road and did not notice till I stopped and luckily caught it in time to save the tyre and not have a blowout. I am looking at the Tyredog and the Doran (LMS Qld are agent) have not decided which, both look good and get good reviews and are similar prices.

You have not put me off, but have given me even more stuff to think about and reminded me why I did order a dual axel caravan.

Thanks
Terry

Hi Terry,

We have just ordered ours for delivery in Feb, we have been told a lot of stuff on the 2014 model is not available on the 2015 model. This includes the 16" wheel up grade. I am still waiting for a reply from another dealer but from what we have worked out is that Jayco are running everything very and i say very close to there limits when it comes to the weight of that van.

 

[yabbietol]

Hi Terry,

We have just ordered ours for delivery in Feb, we have been told a lot of stuff on the 2014 model is not available on the 2015 model. This includes the 16" wheel up grade. I am still waiting for a reply from another dealer but from what we have worked out is that Jayco are running everything very and i say very close to there limits when it comes to the weight of that van.

That would be a real shame about no 16"wheel upgrade. I would be insisting with the dealer that the Caravan is legal and safe to tow before I accepted it. We just did this over excessive ball weight in the van we ordered and did not accept. I do not think the 15" wheels would be legal for the 16.55-3; considering the habit of Jayco vans nearly always weighing more than what they advertise in both brochure and on the web. It is a very thing close at the advertised tare weight 1920Kg plus 375Kg. There is a fair chance the 16.55-3 will most likely exceed the load rating of 15" tyres.

 

[coled1970]

Don't worry the van will be going straight to the weigh bridge which is 10min away and if its not right the van will be sent back and telling them i want my money back if not there will be some programmes airing there issues.

 

[achjimmy]

Actually the load rating of the tyre must be the same or more than the rating of the suspension, over 2t I'd be wanting a 16" rim as the availability of LT tyres is better, can't really see the value of an off road type for a trailer, it's not driven so the fancy tread doesn't really do much other than look good and cost more.
Bob Jane for the load rating and other tyre/wheel stuff as I've mentioned before www.carbible.com

Yep agree. A quality LT I just like the ATs because I belive they are tougher.

 

[achjimmy]

Hi Terry,

We have just ordered ours for delivery in Feb, we have been told a lot of stuff on the 2014 model is not available on the 2015 model. This includes the 16" wheel up grade. I am still waiting for a reply from another dealer but from what we have worked out is that Jayco are running everything very and i say very close to there limits when it comes to the weight of that van.

Just check the dealer hasn't got it wrong. When we ordered ours they listed 2 extra tyre options. 245/70-16 and 265/70or75-16 we choose the latter but was told no longer available so went with 245's. Personally wouldn't have a heavy single on 15's

 

[yabbietol]

Just check the dealer hasn't got it wrong. When we ordered ours they listed 2 extra tyre options. 245/70-16 and 265/70or75-16 we choose the latter but was told no longer available so went with 245's. Personally wouldn't have a heavy single on 15's

That is good news.
When I spoke to the dealer today I was told they would have to check with the factory when it opens, but they thought 16" were an option on the Outback, but not the tourer. As we are looking at the Outback 16" tyres are a given for us. I am surprised they would even sell the Outback 16.51-3 with 15" tyres considering how close to the 15" tyre load limit the Outback static weight is, mind you I have yet to confirm what tyres they come with as Standard, the brochure says 15". So probably 15".
I have told the dealer I am not interested in the 16.51-3 Outback without 16" tyres that have a decent load rating. Delivery may also be an issue we are looking at around April at this stage (again not sure until the factory reopens).

 

[Bushman]

Hi Terry
Just been reading of the demise of your van, must be very disappointing. We to have the Pajero, which made it awkward finding a full bunk van with the tow limits, but it was possible, buy going none Jayco, the only one Jayco had that suited our needs (sort of) was the Starcraft 20 but even the touring (non outback ) was border line on the weights and even that was after the dealer stated they would have to down grade the ATM by 5kg to keep it at 2500 so we didn't have the issue with the 180 kg ball weight.
Which bring me to another point (maybe I misread your post) however, once you go over that magic 2500kg, that 180 kg is your "MAXIMUM" allowable ball weight, not the "TARE" ball weight.

I do wonder sometime where Jayco get their weights from, I reckon my EX-Panda was weighed before the spare wheel a gas bottle went on.
Our new van ( None Jayco coming next month) has ATM of 25ookg so we can get the magic 250kg on the ball, however we wont have a lot to play with so we'll have to be careful.

Anyway good luck on whatever you decided and hopefully you'll get it sorted soon.

 

[Drover]

You can get 15" tyres with the load ratings but you need to go 225 or more and that means a 7" wide rim and most of the Jaycos I see have 6" wide rims which really keep you down to around 215's and LT tyres with over 1 ton ratings are harder to find.

 

[yabbietol]

Hi Terry
Just been reading of the demise of your van, must be very disappointing. We to have the Pajero, which made it awkward finding a full bunk van with the tow limits, but it was possible, buy going none Jayco, the only one Jayco had that suited our needs (sort of) was the Starcraft 20 but even the touring (non outback ) was border line on the weights and even that was after the dealer stated they would have to down grade the ATM by 5kg to keep it at 2500 so we didn't have the issue with the 180 kg ball weight.
Which bring me to another point (maybe I misread your post) however, once you go over that magic 2500kg, that 180 kg is your "MAXIMUM" allowable ball weight, not the "TARE" ball weight.

I do wonder sometime where Jayco get their weights from, I reckon my EX-Panda was weighed before the spare wheel a gas bottle went on.
Our new van ( None Jayco coming next month) has ATM of 25ookg so we can get the magic 250kg on the ball, however we wont have a lot to play with so we'll have to be careful.

Anyway good luck on whatever you decided and hopefully you'll get it sorted soon.

Thanks @Bushman, I do like the Paramount caravans, but they are a bit too high in $$$ for us at this stage. The lower cost of the Jayco is a big attraction for us.

Tow ball weight is very confusing the terminology from the trailer compliance plate on the 18.55-3 caravan we did not accept was:
Empty Tow Ball Mass - 263Kg
Maximum Ball Loading - 303 Kg

Jayco use the term in their 2014 brochure of - tow ball (kg)
In the printed sheet I got on the 18.55-3 Tourer - Towball Weight (approx)

So the terminology is allover the place, how we understood it was Empty Tow Ball Mass is the lowest weight you will ever get on the tow ball with the van at Tare weight (no gas, no water - about 200Kg and no payload - 375Kg or 475Kg) and the caravan is well balanced around the axels. The Maximum Ball Loading is the weight on the tow ball that can not be legally exceed when the van is loaded with water plus gas (about 200Kg) and part or full payload (remainder Jayco payload is 175kg single axel and 275Kg dual axel). The ATM is the total weight the fully loaded caravan must not legally exceed.

This means that even at the ATM below 2500Kg the Pajero could not tow the delivered caravan legally in NSW as the tow ball weight could not get below 263Kg without major weight distribution changes and a new trailer compliance plate. Hence the caravan was not a viable choice for us. Interestingly, as the ATM (2601Kg) was well over 2.5t ( it should have been below according to info from Jayco) when fully loaded the legal tow ball weight we could handle was 180Kg. So really a double whammy, two weight related reasons why we could not take the 18.55-3 Outback.

Hello @Drover the size and width is of tyres is mainly for us an issue with load rating on the single axel. The key thing is what load rating of the tyres the caravan comes with, the 16" tyres usually have a higher load rating. The problem arises if you get a single axel with 15" tyres the compliance plate is for 15" tyres and you cannot fit 16" later without changing the trailer compliance plate. The choice of LT (tougher) verses radials (good heat dissipation) is something I would look at closely when replacing tyres, but like most of us I would just use the generic no name tyres that come with the caravan until they get damaged, worn or brittle.