Special Towing Category for driving licence.
- Thread starter Bank of Dad
- Start date
Hey @Bank of Dad your only solution is to sell up and move up here to the sunshine state. Both L and P platers can tow up here and also do the posted speed limit as well. You can have as many licences, tickets and pieces of paper you like but if your an idiot you will still end up in trouble.
Any fans of ' Yes Minister' / 'Yes Prime Minister'? Sir Humphrey says to Jim Hacker, "Minister, it is the most courageous thing you've ever done"! Jim Hacker (look of horror), "My god, is it?"
@Bank of Dad its a real scary thought of those that are out there towing things that really just should not be towed nor the person behind the wheel the knowledge of how to tow. I would have been one of these had it not been for my father in law. @Bluey thats right, once the knowledge and experience goes who do we ask? I agree i think that something is most certainly required and needed but what should that be? If you test it, is it just another test for the sake of a test and revenue raising at the end of the day? Take gun licensing (QLD) for example as a comparison. The gun laws all came in when ever they did and lets put a test in. Well I did this course and sat my exam at the end - and you know what they said, well we don't want anyone to fail so ask questions through out the test to make sure you know the answer. Would the same thing happen here?
Now let me give you a real example of how inexperience and no knowledge would put you in harms way. Father in law bought a brand new van. He has driven trucks all his life and towed his previous van and our van for the last 3 or 4 years as well as other vans in his past and boats. The new van however was all over the road. This was before he had loaded anything in it at all. We spent many hours testing things working out weights, ball weights axle lengths etc. Ball weight basically too light @ 80kgs but lots of time and testing etc. He ended up purchasing an Andersen Tow Hitch setup which has solved the problem. Put this situation in the hands of somebody who has no experience what so ever and they would know nothing better and just say well this must be how it is.
So what does society do? BOD i agree, provide training opportunities rather than licensing. Make sure people actually know and understand the issues at hand. Make sure that they can hitch a van up. Make sure that they can back a van up etc.
just my thoughts.
Now let me give you a real example of how inexperience and no knowledge would put you in harms way. Father in law bought a brand new van. He has driven trucks all his life and towed his previous van and our van for the last 3 or 4 years as well as other vans in his past and boats. The new van however was all over the road. This was before he had loaded anything in it at all. We spent many hours testing things working out weights, ball weights axle lengths etc. Ball weight basically too light @ 80kgs but lots of time and testing etc. He ended up purchasing an Andersen Tow Hitch setup which has solved the problem. Put this situation in the hands of somebody who has no experience what so ever and they would know nothing better and just say well this must be how it is.
So what does society do? BOD i agree, provide training opportunities rather than licensing. Make sure people actually know and understand the issues at hand. Make sure that they can hitch a van up. Make sure that they can back a van up etc.
just my thoughts.
Sarah could refer to the Robin Williams "documentary" RV, as her technical source.
Antman.......spot on. No licence.....TRAINING, REAL TRAINING, not the crap that govt demand. Educate, educate, educate........that's the need. Govt procrastinate and police prosecute.
God knows I see enough vans being towed by cars that can't tow them legally. As a motor bike rider it pisses me off.....tow a 3 ton van with an 8 year old Hilux, all cool. Wear a tinted visor on a helmet on a sunny day, roll out the TRG!
God knows I see enough vans being towed by cars that can't tow them legally. As a motor bike rider it pisses me off.....tow a 3 ton van with an 8 year old Hilux, all cool. Wear a tinted visor on a helmet on a sunny day, roll out the TRG!
This is off the topic but will add for what it's worth.
Have mentioned how concerned we are re towing weights for both vans and vehicles but the ones that really worry me are the littlish camper vans (the old vw types) with gas bottles on top on roof racks, and with half their worldly possessions stuffed around these. Often they don't tie them on securely and you can see the whole vehicle sag badly. Or the gas bottles are just slung on and travel horizontally.
What they can't fit on the rusty roof racks are often attached to the rear bumper bar and they sag even more at the rear.
We steer clear of these as much as possible and certainly won't camp anywhere near them, if possible.
I guess there must be some regulations to minimise these problems but unless owners / hirers know they are placing themselves and others in danger then they will continue to do it.
Not trying to be a b.o.f but they scare the crap out of me!
Have mentioned how concerned we are re towing weights for both vans and vehicles but the ones that really worry me are the littlish camper vans (the old vw types) with gas bottles on top on roof racks, and with half their worldly possessions stuffed around these. Often they don't tie them on securely and you can see the whole vehicle sag badly. Or the gas bottles are just slung on and travel horizontally.
What they can't fit on the rusty roof racks are often attached to the rear bumper bar and they sag even more at the rear.
We steer clear of these as much as possible and certainly won't camp anywhere near them, if possible.
I guess there must be some regulations to minimise these problems but unless owners / hirers know they are placing themselves and others in danger then they will continue to do it.
Not trying to be a b.o.f but they scare the crap out of me!
After some considerable thought, like the Italian army at the end of the war .... I may have changed sides. Tow licensing and training may well have a negative impact of the entertainment value of watching people with no clue arriving at the caravan park.
Thats one of lifes great pleasures
.... and the angrier and more frustrated the participants get, the more entertaining it is. 
Could the compulsory course just be for foward motion, with the reversing course an expensive option a week later in a different suburb, so no-one takes that up.
Thats one of lifes great pleasures
.... and the angrier and more frustrated the participants get, the more entertaining it is. Could the compulsory course just be for foward motion, with the reversing course an expensive option a week later in a different suburb, so no-one takes that up.
I'm with you @Crusty181. But don't forget, we still have the pure our joy of sitting back under the awning with a cold beer watching someone set up a camper trailer in the rain. Come to think of it, Or scorching heat. Sweat always brings out the best in people:mad2: with similar levels of anger and frustration.
BTW, purely a useless observation, but when I was just looking for an emoticon for my post, I noticed the one in in the menu to select emoticons is not actually available.....its a good one too.
You would think I have better things to do today that that, but.....
BTW, purely a useless observation, but when I was just looking for an emoticon for my post, I noticed the one in in the menu to select emoticons is not actually available.....its a good one too.
You would think I have better things to do today that that, but.....
While education is the key, it must be COMPULSARY education, and the easiest way to manage that is through a licencing system if you wish to tow anything. Voluntary training will assist, particularly when towing a caravan, remember though people tow so many other things than caravans.
Below are three examples of accidents I have been to in the past 10 years involving trailers, the information is gained from police reports and witness statements
1. 2006 A Male attends a service station and hires a car trailer, fills out the required paperwork, hands over his hard earned. The attendant helps to hook up the trailer to a 1985 ZL Fairlaine (Tow capacity max 1600kg) with a light duty towbar, runs the hirer through the operation of winch and ramps and checks trailer lights.
Hirer takes trailer home and loads a VP commodore onto trailer (Kerb weight 1362 kg), then continues to load commodore with household items and flat pack furniture (estimated 500 kg). So 1862 kg + the weight of the trailer, another 600 kg, a total of 2462 kg, well above the capability of the Fairlaine, and certainly above the home made towbar.
Hirer begins to travel North of Adelaide into an 80 kph zone, where he finds the trailer is too heavy on the back of the fairlaine (downforce), so stops and moves commodore backwards until it all sits level (by eye). He then continues on his trip. (worth noting the commodore is only held onto the trailer by the winch, no additional tie downs). Time is now approx. 9pm.
Once the hirer hits a 110 kph zone and begins to speed up. At 95 kph the trailer begins to wobble violently and is uncontrollably, resulting in the trailer rolling and the commodore rolling independently, the fairlaine tips onto it's side and stops, driver escapes without injury. Unfortunately, coming in the opposite direction at that exact moment is another car with 2 occupants, unable to avoid the carnage they hit the commodore, sending it spinning on its side into the fairlaine, the trailer rolls onto the bonnet of the oncoming care and slides up, partially removing the roof of the car and decapitating the 2 occupants (remember this was at the same time as the trailer rolled).
Result 2 fatally injured, both innocent parties.
Being a hire trailer, voluntary education, with lower premiums on insurance or lower registration fees would not have worked. Compulsory education (ie a licence) may have worked.
2. 2014, Again a driver hires a car trailer, this time tri axel, hooks up to a D22 Navara, with 3 tonne towing capacity, dives to pick up a ski boat and trailer. As the boat trailer is not yet roadworthy, driver loads the boat/trailer combination onto the car trailer. To ensure the Navara does not sag too much, the boat trailer is loaded towbar first. This means that the boat trailer axels are behind the car trailer axels, so the majority of the weight is on the rear of the trailer.
Driver travels 400 km at 80kph before commencing a steeper decent where his speed increases, the trailer begins to wobble uncontrollably and the driver applies the brakes to attempt to slow down. Trailer rolls 1.5 times landing upside down, with the boat ejected 30 metres from the accident scene. the trailer has disconnected from the Navara, after the Navara has rolled onto its roof.
Result, sole occupant suffered non-life threatening injuries, however is now a quadriplegic.
Again, voluntary education would not have helped, compulsory might have.
3. 2015, A driver takes his 6x4 box trailer, towed by a 2015 Hilux, and buys 500kg of animal feed, in bags, and begins to travel home. After hitting a bump at 100kph, the trailer bounces heavily, lands crooked and rolls, breaking the drawbar, this also caused the hilux to roll onto its side, landing on a rural fence strainer post. The post passes through the driver's window and hits the driver's headrest, millimetres from the drivers head, the force breaks the headrest from its stems into the seat. Driver walks away with sore pride and written off week old car, no injuries (mm from potential fatality).
In all three of these cases, voluntary education would not have worked. Compulsory education may have reduced the risk. I know that the licencing of driver's may not be the perfect answer, lets face it we still have licenced car, truck, bus and motorcycle driver's doing stupid things. Lets face it, how long have we been educated not to drink and drive??? Or wear seatbelts?? Or drive to the speed limit?? All of which continue to happen and be major causes of death and injury.
The most dangerous way to tackle this increasing issue, is to do nothing and maintain the status quo. Letting natural selection happen has, and will, effect innocent people, not the stupid ones.
If you have read this far, Rant Over
Below are three examples of accidents I have been to in the past 10 years involving trailers, the information is gained from police reports and witness statements
1. 2006 A Male attends a service station and hires a car trailer, fills out the required paperwork, hands over his hard earned. The attendant helps to hook up the trailer to a 1985 ZL Fairlaine (Tow capacity max 1600kg) with a light duty towbar, runs the hirer through the operation of winch and ramps and checks trailer lights.
Hirer takes trailer home and loads a VP commodore onto trailer (Kerb weight 1362 kg), then continues to load commodore with household items and flat pack furniture (estimated 500 kg). So 1862 kg + the weight of the trailer, another 600 kg, a total of 2462 kg, well above the capability of the Fairlaine, and certainly above the home made towbar.
Hirer begins to travel North of Adelaide into an 80 kph zone, where he finds the trailer is too heavy on the back of the fairlaine (downforce), so stops and moves commodore backwards until it all sits level (by eye). He then continues on his trip. (worth noting the commodore is only held onto the trailer by the winch, no additional tie downs). Time is now approx. 9pm.
Once the hirer hits a 110 kph zone and begins to speed up. At 95 kph the trailer begins to wobble violently and is uncontrollably, resulting in the trailer rolling and the commodore rolling independently, the fairlaine tips onto it's side and stops, driver escapes without injury. Unfortunately, coming in the opposite direction at that exact moment is another car with 2 occupants, unable to avoid the carnage they hit the commodore, sending it spinning on its side into the fairlaine, the trailer rolls onto the bonnet of the oncoming care and slides up, partially removing the roof of the car and decapitating the 2 occupants (remember this was at the same time as the trailer rolled).
Result 2 fatally injured, both innocent parties.
Being a hire trailer, voluntary education, with lower premiums on insurance or lower registration fees would not have worked. Compulsory education (ie a licence) may have worked.
2. 2014, Again a driver hires a car trailer, this time tri axel, hooks up to a D22 Navara, with 3 tonne towing capacity, dives to pick up a ski boat and trailer. As the boat trailer is not yet roadworthy, driver loads the boat/trailer combination onto the car trailer. To ensure the Navara does not sag too much, the boat trailer is loaded towbar first. This means that the boat trailer axels are behind the car trailer axels, so the majority of the weight is on the rear of the trailer.
Driver travels 400 km at 80kph before commencing a steeper decent where his speed increases, the trailer begins to wobble uncontrollably and the driver applies the brakes to attempt to slow down. Trailer rolls 1.5 times landing upside down, with the boat ejected 30 metres from the accident scene. the trailer has disconnected from the Navara, after the Navara has rolled onto its roof.
Result, sole occupant suffered non-life threatening injuries, however is now a quadriplegic.
Again, voluntary education would not have helped, compulsory might have.
3. 2015, A driver takes his 6x4 box trailer, towed by a 2015 Hilux, and buys 500kg of animal feed, in bags, and begins to travel home. After hitting a bump at 100kph, the trailer bounces heavily, lands crooked and rolls, breaking the drawbar, this also caused the hilux to roll onto its side, landing on a rural fence strainer post. The post passes through the driver's window and hits the driver's headrest, millimetres from the drivers head, the force breaks the headrest from its stems into the seat. Driver walks away with sore pride and written off week old car, no injuries (mm from potential fatality).
In all three of these cases, voluntary education would not have worked. Compulsory education may have reduced the risk. I know that the licencing of driver's may not be the perfect answer, lets face it we still have licenced car, truck, bus and motorcycle driver's doing stupid things. Lets face it, how long have we been educated not to drink and drive??? Or wear seatbelts?? Or drive to the speed limit?? All of which continue to happen and be major causes of death and injury.
The most dangerous way to tackle this increasing issue, is to do nothing and maintain the status quo. Letting natural selection happen has, and will, effect innocent people, not the stupid ones.
If you have read this far, Rant Over
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Tragic......not sure how a licence category would make someone less stupid though?
We see drivers, probably licenced, carrying loads in all sorts of dangerous manner, driving like retards.....doesn't stop them.
We see drivers, probably licenced, carrying loads in all sorts of dangerous manner, driving like retards.....doesn't stop them.
Explain how voluntary education will help then? And if licensing doesn't help then why should we have drivers licences at all?
A licence class is purely a way of managing COMPULSORY education. The only cost to the licence holder is to undertake that training, same as voluntary, only everyone is covered.
Education is the key here, and as previously stated, it is not going to stop all of the idiots, it will however reduce them.
Remember, insanity is maintaining the status quo and expecting a different outcome.
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Well said cracka!
I'm now retiring from being a b.o.f. As there are far more anomalies than my annoyance with overloaded noddy vans.
As an aside..again..we had the need to have our Patrol and our 2plus ton van towed well over 100k following a break down. They had to be towed separately and both tow vehicles came without electric brakes and, I assume, under the carrying / tow capacity required.
And they came from a RAC accredited company.
Go figure!
I'm now retiring from being a b.o.f. As there are far more anomalies than my annoyance with overloaded noddy vans.
As an aside..again..we had the need to have our Patrol and our 2plus ton van towed well over 100k following a break down. They had to be towed separately and both tow vehicles came without electric brakes and, I assume, under the carrying / tow capacity required.
And they came from a RAC accredited company.
Go figure!
When we picked up our van as it was our we went and did a course.. They went through all the weights and how to setup the van connecting to the car. There was a few other people doing the course who where picked up with WDH setup incorrectly. We could of done the second half and got a certificate although felt we got what we needed from the practical side.
I also brought a towball scale I use before trips. Even though the Disco has 350kg I want to see if van loaded ok.
I did find that article below interesting. We have just under 700kg payload in the Disco add me and Sarah.. Well not much left
.. Although seriously us plus 4 kids, car seats and pram be just under 400kg.
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/ca...rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
@crackacoldie interesting read.. I also worry when I see people hiring trailers and we all seen the idiots with things not tied down.
I also brought a towball scale I use before trips. Even though the Disco has 350kg I want to see if van loaded ok.
I did find that article below interesting. We have just under 700kg payload in the Disco add me and Sarah.. Well not much left
.. Although seriously us plus 4 kids, car seats and pram be just under 400kg.https://practicalmotoring.com.au/ca...rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
@crackacoldie interesting read.. I also worry when I see people hiring trailers and we all seen the idiots with things not tied down.
