Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

[bigcol]

I might be cynical but, it seems like:

"Hey we have identified a problem.

herein lies the major problem -
the last couple of van roll overs on the Bruce Hwy - have all been people who have towed for ages
the last one I have seen - yesterday - 100 series and 24' van, the guy had been towing for years

only common denominator on ALL of the roll overs is

new Van
Bruce Hwy

which one is at fault

 

[davemc]

It is not easy. People might say licenses, yearly weight checks etc etc
I know when I was younger my cousins where in NSW every year they remove what made their vehicles unroadworthy and re added it after check was done. They went in for a set of none wide tyres they all swapped on and off
People would take off the roof rack, take out the engl etc etc and they pass. We had a guy behind us at the weigh station at Broadford he weight 3440 in his playdo with no van. Our Disco loaded and almost 300kg on the ball weighed a less.

Spot checks would catch over weight although if you read Claytons pages they say a lot of vans have no towball weight and not setup balanced to travel empty. They also go on about WDH with low ball weight they think causes accidents. I know I seen a few Paj's towing van with crap on the ass to bring their ball weight down so they can tow 3tonne at 180kg ball weight.

With weights in a perfect world.
Be nice if TARE was real TARE in some vans not just we weighed one now use the same plate.
Be also nice if ATM was real.. look at my van 475kg minus 3 water tanks, water in pipes/HWS add 2 gas bottles. So around 300kg gone before I add anything.
Also be nice if your tow weight was simple like GCM-GVM not some mathematical problem to solve so we can be class leading.

Although no matter if your weights are good, the van is loaded correctly and your got hours of towing. Crap happens.
I think most of us just driving around now and then go oppps .

 

[Papa Whiskey]

Take a situation where a “ younger” driver had to be licensed to tow... for whatever reason he/ she then disposed of trailer, camper, caravan and does not tow anything for the next 20 years. He/ she then purchases a large van and pushes right to the limit ( or even over) ATM, etc....... Of course, he will be perfectly safe on our roads because he is still “ licensed”!!

 

[Crusty181]

Take a situation where a “ younger” driver had to be licensed to tow... for whatever reason he/ she then disposed of trailer, camper, caravan and does not tow anything for the next 20 years. He/ she then purchases a large van and pushes right to the limit ( or even over) ATM, etc....... Of course, he will be perfectly safe on our roads because he is still “ licensed”!!

Im have very strong opinions about peoples capacity to tow; not so much the "licensing". There are many varied reasons to do nothing, and equally as many ways to do something and get it wrong.

Ive read and heard over and over to the point of ad nausiam how old Cletus has tow for 50 years so he knows everything there is to know about towing. Well Cletus .... I have a revelation for you, you don't. Old Cletus is the same dude, from the same ilk, I repeatedly watch with amusement trying to maneuver his van, or reverse into a caravan park sites. We've all watched very competent caravaners put their vans on almost impossible sites with whats almost magic, and been blown away with their confidence and their skills. The reason we are so impressed is because they are unique, the minority and we are so used to watching people getting it so, so wrong. Reversing is only one towing skill, but its a towing skill none the less. With time, space and a controlled environment, its a pretty good litmus test for capacity. If you dont know what the van doing in that controlled environment with repeated exposure ....... um ???

I will not allow my partner, my son, my brother, nor my father to tow our 3 ton van because none ever towed and simply don't have the skills, or the confidence that comes only from experience to do so safely. And by experience I mean working their way up from small trailer etc. My 85 year old mum has only ever driven a auto. She drives with 2 feet, one constantly on each pedal and has never towed anything ever. My 75 year old mother in law started driving at 70 years of age. So they are both ripe candidates for a 3.5ton caravan adventure? We're all lucky they hate caravans because they could both rip right into it otherwise. Who could ever think thats ok???

I'd be pretty on the money that whilst many of the vocal anti capacity testing advocates are screaming blue murder about testing, they too are restricting who can tow their own 3 ton vans based on exactly the same reasons of capacity, which is kinda just like, um .......... hypocracy. Whats the percentage of vans pulling into caravan parks that are driven by woman, with hubby casually tucked up in the passenger seat not getting involved .... and do I need to ask what the reasons are behind that?

Of course the Princess can drag a large box in a straight line, any idiot can do that and many idiots do. But do I have confidence she can make emergency decisions and maneuvers, absolutely not. She knows she lacks the skills.

Capacity testing will at the very minimum shake some folk up, give some folk some info to mull over, encourage some folk to better equip themselves, make some folk safer for themselves and me; and it will also achieve nothing for folk. But something is better than nothing.

Anyways, I'll go first if that helps

 

[davemc]

thats a interesting point @Crusty181 Sarah and I share the driving have done so since we got the van. Neither of us had towed vans before so we both learnt. You do not see many female drivers I often wonder what happens when the old bugger is sick and they need to move from free camp to next free camp.
I confess she is better at towing then I am Part of this is she drives the Disco around daily where I zip around in a small Mini. So when I tow I need to change my mindset from small car then also be careful about the van on the back.
Although for the 2 weeks in Sydney I drove the Disco as Sarah hates driving in heavy traffic where she does not know where she is.

I have no problem with a license if it helps although as said we did a course already which showed you basics?
Not sure what you do for better course? Being able to reverse does is one thing, understanding your size and your capacities to stop, over take and correct things in a emergency is another. We did some of this in the course. Although real world is different.

 

[bigcol]

both @Papa Whiskey and @Crusty181 have valid and justifiable reasoning's

same as my Crane License -
I did the 250hours training and week long course and 2 day testing in 1992 for my crane license,
(now its a "tick n flick" 40 question page, and pick the crane out of a line up of machines)
but
I still get tested (by a certified RTO(Registered Training Officer)) every 5 years to keep my license

now, even WITH a National Crane License, I cannot use a crane on a Mine Site until I have been assessed and given a VOC (Verification Of Competency) card - sometimes by a RTO who has not used a crane for years
(you dont even NEED a crane license to be an RTO or VOC trainer, just a card to say you can do it)

ludicrous, yes, but its the rules.

now, many years ago, when Adam played full back for the Jerusalem All Stars, I used to do Roof Carpentry
there was a big push to be "licensed" to use a Nail gun as there was so "many" accidents happening with them
obviously, since I have not done that sort of work for 30+ years,
I dont know if they ever did anything about it, but I remember my boss at the time whining about if it would also cover the air staple gun that he used when doing 2nd fixings and making cupboards and such

where do you draw the line
where do you say what is minimum and what is ok as is
how do you train people
how do you train the trainers
how do you "police" the trainers are doing it right
how do you "police" who has and who has not got a license


all for the sake of less than 0.1% of caravan users on the road......................

 

[Mick]

just wondering is this why they want to introduce driver less cars or even flying cars were will they get there licence fees then??

 

[bigcol]

just wondering is this why they want to introduce driver less cars or even flying cars were will they get there licence fees then??

you have to BUY (or lease or rent) a driver less car........ at an enormous expense
remember when they first brought out electric cars....... you paid top dollar for them, but never owned them outright

 

[Drover]

I have it all worked out since the implementation would mean a huge effort of manpower, for each on the ground tester there would need to be 6 administrators plus extra vehicles, office space, someone to make a decision on legislation would be the hard part, so keep whispering to the magazines about legislation so the magazines will sell more, they will be happy and the gulliible road users will believe the whispers and comply with better driving and lots will pay for their own driving courses........................from a Pollies point of view a win, win situation.......same thing with weigh bridge for vans...................................or am I just a synical old coot.

 

[Crusty181]

thats a interesting point @Crusty181 Sarah and I share the driving have done so since we got the van. Neither of us had towed vans before so we both learnt. You do not see many female drivers I often wonder what happens when the old bugger is sick and they need to move from free camp to next free camp.
I confess she is better at towing then I am Part of this is she drives the Disco around daily where I zip around in a small Mini. So when I tow I need to change my mindset from small car then also be careful about the van on the back.
Although for the 2 weeks in Sydney I drove the Disco as Sarah hates driving in heavy traffic where she does not know where she is.

I have no problem with a license if it helps although as said we did a course already which showed you basics?
Not sure what you do for better course? Being able to reverse does is one thing, understanding your size and your capacities to stop, over take and correct things in a emergency is another. We did some of this in the course. Although real world is different.

You obviously care enough enough to do something (a tow course) that's not required, completely voluntary, an inconvenience, and at personal cost. You are in the minority, many dont or wont because they "know" everything about everything already. I applaud you and those like you

I am certainly not advocating a system of "hot air" or inconvenience, nor am I stupid enough to think any genuinely appropriate system will ever exist. Much smarter people than me can work out what the system should be

There are many aspects to consider before anyone even gets behind the wheel. eg Landcruiser has been very successfully marketed by Toyota as the king of tow vehicles, but Toyota also market a cheaper less imposing "Landcruiser", the Prado. Many novices would easily mistake the Prado's capabilities based on the Landcruiser badge. They dont know any different, and is the car salesman going to advise them otherwise. (Im not picking on Toyota, by the way)

There is a huge difference between "purchasing" a caravan, and being "sold" a caravan. How many novices have been coerced into a caravan of size or weight that's not appropriate. My father (who thankfully hates caravaning) cant drive for $hit and has never towed a thing in his life. Theoretically when he retired and decided the open road was a great retirement opportunity for him and my mum, the only "technical" knowledge available to him and what he would be relying on would be info being provided by the less the qualified commission salesman for bothe the van and the car; saleman who's interest is vested in his own pocket. On a side note, he bought a new car recommended by the Ford salesman for list price .... make no mistake, these people out out there in bus loads

There is a wealth of info, legislation, requirements, considerations, weights, loading, and safety available but when the authority of the car license he's had for 60 years is all that's required why would he look elsewhere, and who's going to tell him. Tow endorsements would require a minimum capability standard but it would also serve up all the info that is other wise completely unknown is many circumstances. Search articles about accidents in general and read the self serving, unqualified, and ridiculous opinions provided by the other morons that are driving next to us on our roads .... these are the knuckle head you want to self regulate. Good luck with that.

The stats are clear, caravan accidents are caused by loss of driver control. That loss of control comes from overloading, inappropriate loading, under rated tow vehicle, and over correction. How many of the these people have consciously taken the punt with full knowledge, and how many have been oblivious. Every standard Landcruiser retirement chariot with a tinny on the roof towing a van is overloaded; how many of the driver know that.

The very most any Jayco is rated to carry is 475kg. That is well known, ludicrously low and almost impossible to comply with, and overloading is common knowledge simply because of the obvious difficultly in complying. Without being forced, how many have done the right thing by my travelling family and bothered their ar$e to weigh their loaded cars and their loaded vans, and then addressed any overloading ... and more importantly how many, in possession of this common knowledge, just couldn't care less. Right there is the all the motivation required for forced tow endorsements.

I just see this whole system has incredibly, and mind numbingly unbelievable. We're arguing the point about something which could save lives. If any system helps to stop even one death, its worth it weight in gold; because that might just be my family.

 

[Drover]

Well said @Crusty181 and I cannot but agree with your excellent statement .

 

[millers]

Hi all,
@Crusty181 agree with all your sentiments except one:

Much smarter people than me can work out what the system should be

Replacing "me" with "those that can tow" are the ones that need to figure it out. If left to pollies and the government you are likely to have no improvement and just add to the number crunching required and the cost.

In formulating this it is the caravan-ers and the tow-ers that need to provide the guidance to capability and also indicate that although there is a minimum standard there is always an opportunity to improve and learn more.

As stated before, the minimum standard will be set for people that have no "feel" for driving and just follow instructions. In general I believe that these people are the hardest to improve. Packing the van, hooking it up, driving in the right gear, etc are all totally important but feeling that the caravan or car is pulling to one side and stopping to check and to know what to check is par of the advanced skills.

You can also add to that advanced skill list the ability to spot the idiot and give them plenty of room to avoid you.

I still favour simulators to allow more feel type scenarios.

Happy and safe towing for those going away for the Christmas break.

 

[bigcol]

Much smarter people than me can work out what the system should be

Replacing "me" with "those that can tow" are the ones that need to figure it out.

quite correct
if left to Pollies and vested interested people it will STILL be a shambles, but a money making one at best

We're arguing the point about something which could save lives. If any system helps to stop even one death, its worth it weight in gold;

if this is the main "thrust" of your argument and feelings - I would suggest that setting up a petition on Change.com to get the Authorities to better train EVERYONE on the road, and have Standard Road Laws through out Australia.............
First

not a backward simplistic approach to a minor problem

I refuse to quote statistics that are inherently flawed, but

around 500000 caravan on the road (out of a possible 12 Million drivers - maybe more, bust basically half the population(25mill) has a license)
on any one day maybe 20-70 thousand Vans on the road Australia wide

even allowing for "normal" drivers who run into Caravans on the road (watch one the other day, guy goes through red light into the side of a turning Caravan)

your still talking less than 1 Caravan accident (side swipe poles, head on, roll overs,etc) every 21days
(if you add boats and work trailers the tally come in to something like 1 every 17 days)

the last statistics I looked at Australia wide (2004) was 17 car accidents and 7 truck accidents per day

so to me the Driver Education system is obviously flawed and needs an overhaul

there is MORE dangerous people driving cars and Trucks on the road than stupid people who dont know their weights on their cars and vans

I cannot honestly sit with a dumb expression on my face when people say it can and will save lives - tis a crock of shyte

its more dangerous on the road than flying in a Plane - but people are more scared of Planes than cars & trucks

 

[Drover]

I was thinking along the same lines @bigcol .
Having driven millions of kms in all sorts of vehicles I have to say that caravanners were way down my list of scary people trying to kill me.......
Majority of drivers are Steerer's and that includes truckies, a driver is a different thing entirely.

 

[mfexpanda]

Well said @Crusty181 and I cannot but agree with your excellent statement .

I agree even thou I didn’t read it ,too many words , but I trust you Ian

 

[Drover]

I agree even thou I didn’t read it ,too many words , but I trust you Ian

Go back and read thru it @mfexpanda it is very well written and he actually stayed " On Topic" it worth reading just for that, :drum: so a few Trophy Points should be awarded I think...................................

 

[mfexpanda]

Go back and read thru it @mfexpanda it is very well written and he actually stayed " On Topic" it worth reading just for that, :drum: so a few Trophy Points should be awarded I think...................................

I read it . Ian well written and I do agree and as said you did stay on topic and unless I missed it no sarcasm, which I do look forward to .

 

[Crusty181]

quite correct
if left to Pollies and vested interested people it will STILL be a shambles, but a money making one at best



if this is the main "thrust" of your argument and feelings - I would suggest that setting up a petition on Change.com to get the Authorities to better train EVERYONE on the road, and have Standard Road Laws through out Australia.............
First

not a backward simplistic approach to a minor problem

I refuse to quote statistics that are inherently flawed, but

around 500000 caravan on the road (out of a possible 12 Million drivers - maybe more, bust basically half the population(25mill) has a license)
on any one day maybe 20-70 thousand Vans on the road Australia wide

even allowing for "normal" drivers who run into Caravans on the road (watch one the other day, guy goes through red light into the side of a turning Caravan)

your still talking less than 1 Caravan accident (side swipe poles, head on, roll overs,etc) every 21days
(if you add boats and work trailers the tally come in to something like 1 every 17 days)

the last statistics I looked at Australia wide (2004) was 17 car accidents and 7 truck accidents per day

so to me the Driver Education system is obviously flawed and needs an overhaul

there is MORE dangerous people driving cars and Trucks on the road than stupid people who dont know their weights on their cars and vans

I cannot honestly sit with a dumb expression on my face when people say it can and will save lives - tis a crock of shyte

its more dangerous on the road than flying in a Plane - but people are more scared of Planes than cars & trucks

Im not singling out caravaning, as pointed out its much more wide spread. Ive focused on caravaning because that's why we're all here. Registration statistics are not really helpful. Research in 2013 concluded across all forms of motorised transport the average Aussie drives 15,530 km per year. Out of the 554,344 registered caravans as of 2016 I suspect the average km's driven would be significantly lower. That would be a more balance area to start a statistical comparison.

My fundamental concern is the slap dash approach, complete lack of guidance, and the total reliance of self regulation across every aspect of towing in general, and more so caravans because they can be so damn big and heavy. Im regularly see how other self regulation generally pans out, and its rarely positive

In Victoria I cant drive a rigid 4.6ton truck on my car license, I cant even drive an empty Isuzu NPS75 that weighs 3.0ton down the shop for a sausage roll, because its ATM is 7.5ton. I can legally drive the thumping Dodge Ram with an articulated GCM of 11.4ton or the similarly spec'ed Ford F Truck. Even a Landcruiser can now have a GCM of 7.8ton and I can drive that to, and I can buy all 3 of them from shops within a 20min drive of my house .... is there really any argument our tow laws, licensing and endorsements are insane, and dangerous. Now lets put my old mum in the Ram/van combo, she'll be good to go because she has a car license.

 

[bigcol]

while I do understand your frustrations, oh @Crusty181
the general presumption that our towing Laws were written by Numpties in an "ad hoc" approach as certain things (like technology) have updated........

oh, hang on thats exactly what has happened............................

I dont believe that its people such as your good Parents who are gaining retirement, then deciding they want an Pajero(cause its smaller than a 200 cruiser) and a 23' van to travel Australia, having NEVER towed in their life
which it EXACTLY the call that people have been using to justify towing licenses

I agree with you in that I think it IS people who have towed for years and live by the Motto "she'll be right mate..."
who, when they upgrade their van from a 1980 14' to a 2017 23' (not picking or pointing at anyone - before you assume) do not realise the dangers they have now just unleashed upon themselves..........
VEHICLE STABILITY

me
personally
my opinion

fix the road rules and train the "drivers" better to start with
re-sit the test every 5 years (maximum)

 

[Crusty181]

I dont believe that its people such as your good Parents who are gaining retirement, then deciding they want an Pajero(cause its smaller than a 200 cruiser) and a 23' van to travel Australia, having NEVER towed in their life
which it EXACTLY the call that people have been using to justify towing licenses

I think you have much more faith in peoples self regulation than I do. My parents wont do it (because they think caravaning is for gypsies , unfortunates and weirdos. Hmmmm, now that I see that in text maybe it is), but ....... inexperience, lack of skills and inability to foresee predictable outcomes are not so easy for many folk to see.

The other anomaly is there are many people, like old Cletus, who have been towing for 50 years that are no better at it than my dear old dad who never towed anything.

Funny story in Fingal Bay, where we were camped next to an elderly couple with their brand new large van and brand new Jeep (theyll regret that), and a huge van slowly slides past our camp the wrong way down the one way street, and start swinging into the corner 3 sites from the intersection. It was obvious he wasnt going to make it. The van was about to take out the new van next door so I ran out to watch it open up the side of the van on the street sign, which saved the neighbours.

That was old 90 year old Cletus. He'd apparently been caravaning all his life and all these retire folk have their permanent yearly pozzies after the all the kids leave, including Cletus. His site was on the main park street straight off the road, past the office in a straight line 50 mtrs from the gate which you could see from the gate, yet he managed to get lost in the caravan park he visits at the same time every year to the same site ... and then like every year he had to get the c/park manager to park his van. Apparently he hits stuff most years