Exterior Towball vs. Towing Capacity

[TheExpandables]

Chatting with the Father-in-Law and he mentioned the below that he found on a website :

"The Santa Fe feels secure on the road and the suspension copes well with bumps and thumps. It has nicely weighted steering and the turning circle is surprisingly tight (10.9 metres). Towing capacity is limited to 2000kg, but the down weight on the tow ball is only 100kg, which towing experts say, in effect, limits the towing capacity to 1000kg, as the down weight on the ball is supposed to be 10 per cent of the load".

"A done deal would include towing capabilities, for the Kia it's 100 kg tow ball weight, with the Santa Fe it is also 100 kgs but you have the option of fitting a towing pack for a heavier ball weight to 150 kgs, makes a big difference when towing"

Is this right? I expected that the towing capacity of the vehicle was what it could pull vs. the actual tow ball weight?

Can anyone shed some light on this or point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

 

[Herbertclan]

Chatting with the Father-in-Law and he mentioned the below that he found on a website :

"The Santa Fe feels secure on the road and the suspension copes well with bumps and thumps. It has nicely weighted steering and the turning circle is surprisingly tight (10.9 metres). Towing capacity is limited to 2000kg, but the down weight on the tow ball is only 100kg, which towing experts say, in effect, limits the towing capacity to 1000kg, as the down weight on the ball is supposed to be 10 per cent of the load".

"A done deal would include towing capabilities, for the Kia it's 100 kg tow ball weight, with the Santa Fe it is also 100 kgs but you have the option of fitting a towing pack for a heavier ball weight to 150 kgs, makes a big difference when towing"

Is this right? I expected that the towing capacity of the vehicle was what it could pull vs. the actual tow ball weight?

Can anyone shed some light on this or point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

Keen to hear thoughts on this as well, our Discovery 17.55-5 has an ATM of 2300kg plus change but our maximum ball weight is about 180kgs (empty is 122kg) I like the idea of 10% but think a figure of 7%-10% was toted as acceptable. My issue was that my ball weight is at the max amount before I put any real load on the a frame. Our first shake down trip is next weekend with friends and plan to weight it again once loaded.

Cheers Max,

 

[warren cook]

Chatting with the Father-in-Law and he mentioned the below that he found on a website :

"The Santa Fe feels secure on the road and the suspension copes well with bumps and thumps. It has nicely weighted steering and the turning circle is surprisingly tight (10.9 metres). Towing capacity is limited to 2000kg, but the down weight on the tow ball is only 100kg, which towing experts say, in effect, limits the towing capacity to 1000kg, as the down weight on the ball is supposed to be 10 per cent of the load".

"A done deal would include towing capabilities, for the Kia it's 100 kg tow ball weight, with the Santa Fe it is also 100 kgs but you have the option of fitting a towing pack for a heavier ball weight to 150 kgs, makes a big difference when towing"

Is this right? I expected that the towing capacity of the vehicle was what it could pull vs. the actual tow ball weight?

Can anyone shed some light on this or point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

This whole thing confused me for a while until it all clicked into place. I am sure this is the sort of thing that every one will have a different opinion or interpretation off and I by no means intend on getting into the nitty gritty of others views, just merely happy to try and explain things in laymans terms for you.


You need to keep the two things completely separate when working out what vehicle to use, I am no expert here and only just went through this whole thing recently. What I did find out was do not work off the 10% rule. My van's tare was 2635 with a towball weight of 180. I think the fact it is a dual axle helps with the weight distribution as it has better balance rather than a simple pivot on one axle. The vehicle will be able to pull 2000kg as long as it is balanced correctly. A dual axle car trailer which has a low centre of gravity would be a good example, as long as the car on the trailer is positioned further back or just on the dual axle it will counter balance the downward pressure on the tow ball.

The above is by no means advice as it will affect how the thing handles, just how manufactures can state higher towing capabilities, remember it says can tow 2000kg, it doesn't state how or what you can tow and how everything behaves differently when being towed.

Also another issue is the downward pressure on the rear axles of the car, whatever is hitched up will affect this along with what is packed into boot of the car and how many people sitting in the back. This will be in the manufactures handbook. This is also why people upgrade the rear springs etc rather than change vehicles.

You should really also be looking at GCM of the vehicle you are considering. Gross Combined Mass is the total weight of the vehicle when packed and the caravan when packed, add the two together to get this. This is another way for manufactures to fool people into larger towing capabilities, in a lot of cases if you are maxed out on the tow weight you may not be able to fill the car with passengers or luggage and the combined weight may be over, very common with how the dual cabs are competing by advertising the size they can tow but not the GCM.

Are you doing this exercise for yourself? if its easier to talk and explain over the phone let me know, happy to discuss, I am only sitting at work anyway.

Prepare for a few days of head spinning when figuring this all out.

 

[warren cook]

Keen to hear thoughts on this as well, our Discovery 17.55-5 has an ATM of 2300kg plus change but our maximum ball weight is about 180kgs (empty is 122kg) I like the idea of 10% but think a figure of 7%-10% was toted as acceptable. My issue was that my ball weight is at the max amount before I put any real load on the a frame. Our first shake down trip is next weekend with friends and plan to weight it again once loaded.

Cheers Max,

Hi @Herbertclan,

What year is the prado as I have just had a quick search and most are saying you can have 250kg download. Also have a look at the below discussion regarding weight distribution hitches.

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...Towbar-Failure

 

[warren cook]

"The Santa Fe feels secure on the road and the suspension copes well with bumps and thumps. It has nicely weighted steering and the turning circle is surprisingly tight (10.9 metres). Towing capacity is limited to 2000kg, but the down weight on the tow ball is only 100kg, which towing experts say, in effect, limits the towing capacity to 1000kg, as the down weight on the ball is supposed to be 10 per cent of the load".

"A done deal would include towing capabilities, for the Kia it's 100 kg tow ball weight, with the Santa Fe it is also 100 kgs but you have the option of fitting a towing pack for a heavier ball weight to 150 kgs, makes a big difference when towing"

Is this right? I expected that the towing capacity of the vehicle was what it could pull vs. the actual tow ball weight?

Can anyone shed some light on this or point me in the right direction?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Have a read of the below, should help a little.

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/ca...rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

 

[TheExpandables]

@warren cook thanks mate, it's for the father-in-law about his Hyundai Santa Fe. We were discussing towing capacity of different vehicles and he'd read a little online which prompted the above about the 10%. Great link, that's cleared a lot up and I've sent it over to the F-I-L already!

Hopefully you get an early mark to catch the Swans take the jam out of the Bulldogs donut.

 

[Herbertclan]

Hi @Herbertclan,

What year is the prado as I have just had a quick search and most are saying you can have 250kg download. Also have a look at the below discussion regarding weight distribution hitches.

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...Towbar-Failure

Thanks @warren cook

We have a 2008 120 Prado, have done some lookin on this subject and well aware the Prado is good for 2500kg and 250kg max ball weight.

My thoughts are that we should have the ability to be flexible in what we can apply to the tow ball. im assuming there isn't lot of chassis differences amongst the dual axle outback jayco's, I'm talking when you compare a 17' Discovery vs a 17' expanda pop top vs a full height expanda. All of these vans must have a vastly ranging ATM and ball weights.

Hope the Bulldogs get up today

Cheers Max.

 

[bigcol]

just to add to @warren cook excellent post earlier........

"SNIP"
You need to keep the two things completely separate when working out what vehicle to use, I am no expert here and only just went through this whole thing recently. What I did find out was do not work off the 10% rule. My van's tare was 2635 with a towball weight of 180. I think the fact it is a dual axle helps with the weight distribution as it has better balance rather than a simple pivot on one axle. The vehicle will be able to pull 2000kg as long as it is balanced correctly. A dual axle car trailer which has a low centre of gravity would be a good example, as long as the car on the trailer is positioned further back or just on the dual axle it will counter balance the downward pressure on the tow ball.

the 10% rule as such is a recommendation, layed down, umpteen billion years ago as a "general" rule
much the same as the old "Rule of Thumb"
without going into the rather complicated Mathematical formulas used to work out what is and is not safe to tow

hence
if your looking to tow something, and the tow ball weight is 10% or less than the total gross weight of the towed item (caravan, car trailer, horse float, etc) then you are within the so called "Safe" area of towing

the formula used to determine the amount you can actually tow, is more from a Manufacturers recommendation, what you can safely tow, over a per-determined lifetime of the vehicle, without braking it
classic example of this is the Nissan Patrol Y61 (GU)
ZD30 Manual is 2800kgs towing max
ZD30 Auto is 2500kgs max
RD28 Auto/Man is 2800kgs max
TD42 is 3500kgs max

they all have the same chassis, but the weakest link in Mr Nissans eyes is the auto box on the ZD - thats why it is only 2500kgs
(and also explains why you can buy a ZD30, take the motor out put in a TD42, re-license it as a TD42 and all of a sudden it can tow 3500kgs)

so the amount you can tow is worked out from a Manufacturers recommendation as to the mechanical ability (and their faith in their product)

Mr Toyota has done something similar to the Prado and Cruiser, but from a different angle, to "up sell"
the FJ Cruiser has the same running gear as the Prado, but has a different towing max to the Prado
Prado (series 1) had the same chassis as the early HJ/FJ75 - (1990-1995) then the chassis was changed to the current chassis and tow limit was decreased

Mr Rover was different, he built a chassis to tow 7500lbs, then put a body on it (Defender / Range Rover / Discovery)


as @warren cook said

Prepare for a few days of head spinning when figuring this all out.

its a freaking mine field

 

[warren cook]

Thanks @warren cook

We have a 2008 120 Prado, have done some lookin on this subject and well aware the Prado is good for 2500kg and 250kg max ball weight.

My thoughts are that we should have the ability to be flexible in what we can apply to the tow ball. im assuming there isn't lot of chassis differences amongst the dual axle outback jayco's, I'm talking when you compare a 17' Discovery vs a 17' expanda pop top vs a full height expanda. All of these vans must have a vastly ranging ATM and ball weights.

Hope the Bulldogs get up today

Cheers Max.

All good,

Just something to think about when adding items to the a-frame, you can counter act the added weight to some degree by how you distribute other items in or on the van, also if you add say a 30kg weight on the a-frame closer to the van it will not add 30kg to the downward pressure.

You have plenty of space left, even if you work on the worst case of adding 70kg direct on the hitch, there is not too much you would put on the a-frame that comes to this weight except maybe a large tool box. If that is the case remember to unpack the items you are going to put into it and check your tow ball weight then. Remember you are 180kg packed I am assuming with things in the front boot you may be relocating to a tool box anyway.

If its not for a tool box then you have plenty of available weight left matey.

Not really an AFL fan, (cue the boo's), been catching up on the Ryder Cup all day, lucky I have Foxtel Go on the laptop at work hey!!

Enjoy a few coldies if your watching it though...

 

[warren cook]

@warren cook thanks mate, it's for the father-in-law about his Hyundai Santa Fe. We were discussing towing capacity of different vehicles and he'd read a little online which prompted the above about the 10%. Great link, that's cleared a lot up and I've sent it over to the F-I-L already!

Hopefully you get an early mark to catch the Swans take the jam out of the Bulldogs donut.

No early mark I am afraid, I need to lead the troops from the front line, same tomorrow and the same on Monday. All the in laws are away at Blue lagoon caravan park near The Entrance sending me drunk txt and pics rubbing it in which really doesn't help.

If your watching the game I hope you're keeping hydrated with the good stuff.

 

[TheExpandables]

Oops, looks like I gave the Swans the kiss of death!

 

[Bluey]

Oops, looks like I gave the Swans the kiss of death!

Good on ya im shattered the swans didnt win

 

[Herbertclan]

All good,

Just something to think about when adding items to the a-frame, you can counter act the added weight to some degree by how you distribute other items in or on the van, also if you add say a 30kg weight on the a-frame closer to the van it will not add 30kg to the downward pressure.

You have plenty of space left, even if you work on the worst case of adding 70kg direct on the hitch, there is not too much you would put on the a-frame that comes to this weight except maybe a large tool box. If that is the case remember to unpack the items you are going to put into it and check your tow ball weight then. Remember you are 180kg packed I am assuming with things in the front boot you may be relocating to a tool box anyway.

If its not for a tool box then you have plenty of available weight left matey.

Not really an AFL fan, (cue the boo's), been catching up on the Ryder Cup all day, lucky I have Foxtel Go on the laptop at work hey!!

Enjoy a few coldies if your watching it though...

Cheers @warren cook
Can't say I'm a devoted fan of AFL either but don't mind watching a good game, don't mind playing golf though, Unfortunately I suffer from LOFT but still enjoy my golf.

Next weekend is my time in front of the Tele :rockon:.

Back on point though, I'm not sure my empty ball mass is correct (which is my main gripe) once I have a couple of shake down runs out of the way I'm going to devote some time to this and 1) confirm my plated weights are correct and 2) talk with Jayco on what options I may have with possibly increasing weights. I have a good understanding of weights from Tare through to GCM and ATM but the link you put up was a good read on perceived towing weights from the OEM specs.

Cheers Max,

 

[Bluey]

Cheers @warren cook
Can't say I'm a devoted fan of AFL either but don't mind watching a good game, don't mind playing golf though, Unfortunately I suffer from LOFT but still enjoy my golf.

Next weekend is my time in front of the Tele :rockon:.

Back on point though, I'm not sure my empty ball mass is correct (which is my main gripe) once I have a couple of shake down runs out of the way I'm going to devote some time to this and 1) confirm my plated weights are correct and 2) talk with Jayco on what options I may have with possibly increasing weights. I have a good understanding of weights from Tare through to GCM and ATM but the link you put up was a good read on perceived towing weights from the OEM specs.

Cheers Max,

If you can take the van to your closest reese dealer or tow bar dealer to get them to weigh the ball weight or weigh bridge with multi decks and disconnect the car only then will you know

 

[Herbertclan]

Thanks @Bluey

I have borrowed a springy type ball weight scale but also took it over the weigh bridge when we first got it, I will need to head there again as I've redone my rear bar and added a second spare so I know this will play a part in the ball weight. Will post my findings in my build post and here.

Cheers Max,

 

[Bluey]

Thanks @Bluey

I have borrowed a springy type ball weight scale but also took it over the weigh bridge when we first got it, I will need to head there again as I've redone my rear bar and added a second spare so I know this will play a part in the ball weight. Will post my findings in my build post and here.

Cheers Max,

I think those spring type ball scales they sell in van shop are crap there cheap you pay for what you get tow ball dealer is you best bet for accurate weight but a weigh bridge is second best im carring my spring type scale with me cause its well under what it realy weighs so if anyone eva checks i will say but this thing says im under

 

[TheExpandables]

@warren cook I'd say it's only fair that if you've worked all weekend you should go ahead and register yourself a 2017 Jeep SRT Hellcat as a demo ...

Up, up Cronulla!

 

[warren cook]

@warren cook I'd say it's only fair that if you've worked all weekend you should go ahead and register yourself a 2017 Jeep SRT Hellcat as a demo ...

Up, up Cronulla!

@TheExpandables

Looks and sounds nice doesn't it!! these things are monsters.

Haven't driven the hellcat but have driven a few SRT8's, They are nice for a few weeks but I get fed up pulling into the petrol station every 3-4 days. The Grand Cherokee gives me approx. 900k's on a full tank.

I only caught the end of the game last night, but happy for the Sharks and Gallen to get the result.