Switching to lithium

Boots in Action

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Hey,

I run my whole van off my ute (400ah enerdrive lithium, 40 amp redarc DCDC and a 120W solar panel.) Your 200ah will run plenty of things with no dramas just make sure you buy a decent solar blanket and put in the charge, running a coffee machine a toaster may pull high amp but they only run for a couple of minutes. Induction cook top will drain a battery fast, i think off memory my induction cook top will pull around 170amps per hour using 2000W you can drop it down to like 800W. The higher it is the quicker the water will boil, it all just takes management there is no perfect way it's not always a perfect sunny day to replenish charge.
Some good advice there @GlampinCdub, especially the high drain for some appliances, even for a short time. Your success is undoubtedly due to the fact that you have a large 400ah lithium storage AND a 40A dc-dc charging system. I doubt the 120w limited solar does much to keep batteries charged even on sunny days, so you must be relying on the tug's DC to DC charging ability?? A fair system but at a cost!!!
 
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garfield28

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It's not just the closeness of battery costs??? (AGM vs Lithium), it is all the peripherals that need to be changed to match the Lithium requirements if you want to get the optimum results from your Lithium setup.

Definitely some extra cost but mine overall is pretty tiny compared to the YouTubers. The new solar lithium controller is $100, and the 240v battery charger which is 22amps is costing me $200. I'd rather the money in my pocket but not absolutely rediculas either mate.
I think upgrading as you have the need is way better than upgrading for a perceived need.............. when we catch up out there one day I'll show how to cook toast fast and easy on mesh toaster ....... :becky: :becky: :becky: ............. and you can convert me to warm coffee milk shakes ....... :bounce:

Haha cooked my fair share of toast over a stove or a fire, and plenty of fire boiled water for a cuppa too.
Hey,

I run my whole van off my ute (400ah enerdrive lithium, 40 amp redarc DCDC and a 120W solar panel.) Your 200ah will run plenty of things with no dramas just make sure you buy a decent solar blanket and put in the charge, running a coffee machine a toaster may pull high amp but they only run for a couple of minutes. Induction cook top will drain a battery fast, i think off memory my induction cook top will pull around 170amps per hour using 2000W you can drop it down to like 800W. The higher it is the quicker the water will boil, it all just takes management there is no perfect way it's not always a perfect sunny day to replenish charge.

Yep studying up on the setups etc as much as I can.

I've given up the idea of trying to use a induction cooker as I believe they draw way too much power and not really matched well with my setup. I'm happy with the kettle, toaster and the milk frother.

Thanks for the info though
 

Boots in Action

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Definitely some extra cost but mine overall is pretty tiny compared to the YouTubers. The new solar lithium controller is $100, and the 240v battery charger which is 22amps is costing me $200. I'd rather the money in my pocket but not absolutely rediculas either mate.


Haha cooked my fair share of toast over a stove or a fire, and plenty of fire boiled water for a cuppa too.


Yep studying up on the setups etc as much as I can.

I've given up the idea of trying to use a induction cooker as I believe they draw way too much power and not really matched well with my setup. I'm happy with the kettle, toaster and the milk frother.

Thanks for the info though
All fair comment @garfield28 , but it is YOUR call. By the way, what sort of system do you have to charge from your tug?? You seem to have covered all the other issues pretty well especially a $100.00 price for a solar controller suitable for a Lithium battery capable of handling a high charge from solar panels..
 

Hitting the road

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I had toyed with the idea of upgrading to Lithium as well, but I would need to also replace the current BMS unit to a Lithium compatible. The weight saving alone is extremely attractive. The cost to covert my system would be around $2550.00 and that would only be with around 300 amps of Lithium batteries including the new BMS...plus the cost of a decent inverter.
If i did the sums as to what each amp would cost me for the time actually utilised the cost would not be considered economical at all.

i think I'll wait until the AGM's fail me...Lithium batteries, if they can still mine the precious metals needed to produce them, might even be a bit cheaper by then. Meanwhile I'll just need to fire up the generator if I desperately need 240v to run something...
 

Drover

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Some Lithiums will happily charge up on non lithium chargers as well, depends on their own BMS system and while in theory it shows not a full charge be achieved, the small loss is not worth worrying about when you get down to it, especially when if you want to replace say a J35B to a D its going to slug you $1200 or more so you can get a minute of extra light power ............... seems like a lot of money for little gain as Ive stated before, go lithiums, upgrade to a stand alone lithium capable MPPT reg it will then charge them up and if you have a unit like a BMPro or similar unit, disconnect it from solar and it becomes a very good power distribution centre ...... your van would be stand alone....
 

Hitting the road

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Yeah I had read that most AGM battery chargers will charge Lithium batteries ok, provided the Lithium battery has a decent self contained BMS. The charger needs to be limited to what voltage it will reach apparently, and also can't have the "de sulphating" phase as that may damage a Lithium battery.
The BMPRO I have might be ok as I am sure it does not have that facility within it's programming.

As you note Drover, the battery might be down a little with an AGM charger, but would likely make little difference...being in my case I have a solar set up that is fully Lithiun compatable, it could just be a workable solution...the current BMPRO BMS just working as a power distribution centre....

Maybe I should keep an eye out for specials on Lithium batteries and snavel some when the price is right...:)
 
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Boots in Action

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Yeah I had read that most AGM battery chargers will charge Lithium batteries ok, provided the Lithium battery has a decent self contained BMS. The charger needs to be limited to what voltage it will reach apparently, and also can't have the "de sulphating" phase as that may damage a Lithium battery.
The BMPRO I have might be ok as I am sure it does not have that facility within it's programming.

As you note Drover, the battery might be down a little with an AGM charger, but would likely make little difference...being in my case I have a solar set up that is fully Lithiun compatable, it could just be a workable solution...the current BMPRO BMS just working as a power distribution centre....

Maybe I should keep an eye out for specials on Lithium batteries and snavel some when the price is right...:)
Don't forget @Drover and @Hitting the road that Lithium batteries do NOT like "equalisation" charges either, as they have their own system of levelling all the cells. A charger for AGMs not only normally has a desulphation program but also an "equalisation" stage after reaching the float condition, a situation where short bursts of high voltage up to 15 volts plus at very low current is pulsed into the battery to bring all cells up to the same level. This can occur regularly over a few days on a daily basis. Lithium batteries definitely do not like that and probably would shut down. Another reason not to leave a non lithium charger on after full charge reached!! If you are around to supervise that, you may get away with it, but not something I would like to risk. I am sure the BMPro does have a daily short pulse program to keep battery fully charged so that would be a problem.
 

Hitting the road

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Thanks Boots, yes...that's what I have read too. So if I were to use a regular AGM battery charger in lieu of a Lithium compatible charger it could not be left to "maintain" the battery.

The J35B BMPRO I have does not have the ability to revive a highly discharged battery...so it seems there is no desulphation program. From the manual: "If a battery has become deeply discharged though, the J35 will not charge it. Remove the battery and charge it with a stand-alone charger. Once the battery voltage has recovered to normal levels, it may be reinstalled."

It does though have the "boost" mode where it will kick in moments of high voltage to maintain the battery cell levels. This would not be good for any lithium battery.
"J35 is a full battery management system with a multi-stage battery charger including bulk, absorption, float, and periodic boost charging modes to ensure long battery life."

Realistically then, Lithium batteries would be fine with the J35B distributing power...but, would risk damaging the batteries if for example in a Park on a powered site as the BMPRO would be charging the batteries constantly, and potentially enter in to the phase where it would send pulses of high voltage to the batteries...

So off grid would be fine as the charge input would be from solar panels through a Lithium compatible MPPT regulator...

Interesting article; https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/can-i-charge-a-lithium-battery-with-a-normal-sla-charger/
 

Drover

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or just click on the GEL charge cycle, no battery cook mode then.... that is if mains charger is ever really needed....
My chargers have never had auto Equalization mode either it was always a selection..
 
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Boots in Action

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Thanks Boots, yes...that's what I have read too. So if I were to use a regular AGM battery charger in lieu of a Lithium compatible charger it could not be left to "maintain" the battery.

The J35B BMPRO I have does not have the ability to revive a highly discharged battery...so it seems there is no desulphation program. From the manual: "If a battery has become deeply discharged though, the J35 will not charge it. Remove the battery and charge it with a stand-alone charger. Once the battery voltage has recovered to normal levels, it may be reinstalled."

It does though have the "boost" mode where it will kick in moments of high voltage to maintain the battery cell levels. This would not be good for any lithium battery.
"J35 is a full battery management system with a multi-stage battery charger including bulk, absorption, float, and periodic boost charging modes to ensure long battery life."

Realistically then, Lithium batteries would be fine with the J35B distributing power...but, would risk damaging the batteries if for example in a Park on a powered site as the BMPRO would be charging the batteries constantly, and potentially enter in to the phase where it would send pulses of high voltage to the batteries...

So off grid would be fine as the charge input would be from solar panels through a Lithium compatible MPPT regulator...

Interesting article; https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/can-i-charge-a-lithium-battery-with-a-normal-sla-charger/
Again @Hitting the road , now we seem to be getting down to the "nitty gritty" of the special charging need for Lithium batteries. The following link from the very reputable company Enerdrive provides more data to back up your link. Also note the warnings on charging and discharging when in Float mode if using a lead acid charger or from your BMPro. Of course, you can get away with a lot of things in the short time if you are lucky, but if looking at long term use, use a proper charger with the lithium profile suitable for your expensive lithium battery.
However, charging with MPPT solar with the correct controller with lithium algorithm would be the way to go. That way, the BMPro can just be the distribution point and NOT for charging lithium battery when connected to grid 240 volt power.
 

Drover

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@Drover , it still pulses high voltage spikes through the battery in its equalisation mode. So still not suitable, and also charging voltage for Gel batteries is 14.2 to 14.3 volts, short of the 14.8 volts that AGM and Lithium require.

Your correct, though but it should be noted that not all AGM chargers have auto equalization modes, some its a selected mode ............... but my original point was " that some lithiums batteries state they are compatable with lead acid chargers" so one could assume that the manufacturer might know, well sometimes they might but if you don't do the homework before buying then thats another problem........ a good solar set up makes it redundant ....

I direct you here; https://itechworld.com.au/blogs/learn/do-i-have-to-upgrade-my-battery-chargers-for-lithium
 

Boots in Action

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Your correct, though but it should be noted that not all AGM chargers have auto equalization modes, some its a selected mode ............... but my original point was " that some lithiums batteries state they are compatable with lead acid chargers" so one could assume that the manufacturer might know, well sometimes they might but if you don't do the homework before buying then thats another problem........ a good solar set up makes it redundant ....

I direct you here; https://itechworld.com.au/blogs/learn/do-i-have-to-upgrade-my-battery-chargers-for-lithium
I would go along with you on that @Drover , as there is a lot of "marketing" out there looking to get your business. As you said, do your research or take what the seller says.....maybe???? Here is another link you might like to read which confirms exactly what you said. Does the manufacturer REALLY know the whole story and are they prepared to tell you the whole story. They are not the ones that lose out if all turns to s%#t. Let the buyer beware!! But who do you believe??? It's a jungle out there. There are also many other another links with various conflicting answers. Take your pick!! @Hitting the road - more data for you to research.


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Can a lead acid battery be directly replaced by a Li-ion type, or is modification required for recharging? Can aLi-ion battery be recharged by a standard battery charger?

There are a few problems with charging lithium ion batteries with a lead acid charger. First of all, there is a voltage mismatch. Lithium ion batteries need to be charged to 4.2V or some multiple of this for series cells. Lead acid chargers tend to have voltages in multiples of six volts. In order to get lithium ion batteries to fully charge, it is inevitable that you will overcharge them for this reason alone.
Another problem is that lead acid chargers tend to float charge fully charged batteries by passing a small amount of current through fully charged batteries. This is not a problem with lead acid batteries, as they can handle this well. Lithium ion is another story. Once again, this will overcharge the batteries and possibly cause a dangerous situation. With lithium ion batteries, charging must STOP the second batteries are fully charged.
Finally, when lithium ion cells are charged in series, the state of charge of individual cells must be monitored with balancing taps between the cells. This is why lithium ion batteries with multiple cells always have more than two connections. This ensures that none of the cells is overcharged. Lead acid chargers don’t monitor individual cells, which can create a dangerous situation should one or more cells become overcharged.
About the closest thing you can do to charging lithium ion batteries with a lead acid charger is using a lead acid charger to charge lithium iron phosphate batteries. This particular lithium ion chemistry is actually voltage compatible with lead acid if two lithium iron phosphate cells are used in place of three lead acid cells. It is also far more stable than other lithium ion chemistries and, therefore, less dangerous if overcharged. However, like other lithium ion chemistries, charge should be terminated when fully charged AND the cells should be properly balanced for optimum battery life.
Lithium ion automotive batteries actually use lithium iron phosphate cells, but incorporate battery management electronics. The same thing could also be done with 3.7V cells if appropriate battery management electronics were used.
 
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Boots in Action

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and for what its worth https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/buying/buyer-guides/lead-acid-vs-lithium/

most interesting and actually understandable for most readers.
About enough............
Thanks for the last link @Drover . Good info too. How do you relate para 3 to the operation by some caravanners with huge draw downs on battery power if max load exceeded causing safety mosfets to be blown?? A good warning to those using high load equipment through inverters. Great discussion with you and hopefully valuable information for all those interested in lithium battery knowledge.
 

Drover

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Thanks for the last link @Drover . Good info too. How do you relate para 3 to the operation by some caravanners with huge draw downs on battery power if max load exceeded causing safety mosfets to be blown?? A good warning to those using high load equipment through inverters. Great discussion with you and hopefully valuable information for all those interested in lithium battery knowledge.

When I read it, earlier this year, I recalled thinking I read where some just shut down and then reset, it made me think that these batteries and BMS they incorporate are evolving so fast and are available in so many variations one needs to tread carefully and be fully informed on the actual unit one may be looking at, "Oils aint Oils Sol " applies very much so to these things and assuming they are the same is a trap easily led into...................... The units I ended up being interested in the BMS would take a charge from my current charger, the BMS had over voltage protection along with current draw, where try to draw too much it would clip it or shut down, in the end the research result was the same as for my Dodge RAM purchase, something for Lotto................ Following up on all this just confirms my current set up is still damn good........... I really don't need my mains charger though and probably shouldn't have replaced it when the old Projecta job carked it, its the 3rd redundancy back up, main solar reg fails we just plug in the back up, if it fails drag the LRPS out and plug in the mains charger, just to top things up as by then I'll be peed off big time and plotting a course for home and the workshop, online suppliers packing and wrapping for the postie to deliver... of course if far away I have back up sheds interstate to fall back on for maintenance use ...... just stop at a Dans before arrival for presento's ...... then again theres insurance......
 
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GlampinCdub

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Some good advice there @GlampinCdub, especially the high drain for some appliances, even for a short time. Your success is undoubtedly due to the fact that you have a large 400ah lithium storage AND a 40A dc-dc charging system. I doubt the 120w limited solar does much to keep batteries charged even on sunny days, so you must be relying on the tug's DC to DC charging ability?? A fair system but at a cost!!!
Yeah mate, the solar is because i have a fridge running constantly other than that it would take a long time to get back to 400ah lol.
With a solar blanket though will put in about 15amps but again long time to max haha. I try to refrain from using the induction cooker and stick with the bedourie lol nothing tastes better then a slow cooked curry :D
 
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GlampinCdub

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Definitely some extra cost but mine overall is pretty tiny compared to the YouTubers. The new solar lithium controller is $100, and the 240v battery charger which is 22amps is costing me $200. I'd rather the money in my pocket but not absolutely rediculas either mate.


Haha cooked my fair share of toast over a stove or a fire, and plenty of fire boiled water for a cuppa too.


Yep studying up on the setups etc as much as I can.

I've given up the idea of trying to use a induction cooker as I believe they draw way too much power and not really matched well with my setup. I'm happy with the kettle, toaster and the milk frother.

Thanks for the info though
I went big because i knew what i wanted my system to run, just keep in mind if you have an idea for a system make sure your charging capacity is enough to upgrade to a larger battery. You don't want to have to rebuild your whole system because you went with a smaller charging network. You might save a penny on the initial setup and not future proof yourself.

As boots says "DO IT RIGHT AND YOU ONLY DO IT ONCE!"

Cheers, good luck!
 
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Boots in Action

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When I read it, earlier this year, I recalled thinking I read where some just shut down and then reset, it made me think that these batteries and BMS they incorporate are evolving so fast and are available in so many variations one needs to tread carefully and be fully informed on the actual unit one may be looking at, "Oils aint Oils Sol " applies very much so to these things and assuming they are the same is a trap easily led into...................... The units I ended up being interested in the BMS would take a charge from my current charger, the BMS had over voltage protection along with current draw, where try to draw too much it would clip it or shut down, in the end the research result was the same as for my Dodge RAM purchase, something for Lotto................ Following up on all this just confirms my current set up is still damn good........... I really don't need my mains charger though and probably shouldn't have replaced it when the old Projecta job carked it, its the 3rd redundancy back up, main solar reg fails we just plug in the back up, if it fails drag the LRPS out and plug in the mains charger, just to top things up as by then I'll be peed off big time and plotting a course for home and the workshop, online suppliers packing and wrapping for the postie to deliver... of course if far away I have back up sheds interstate to fall back on for maintenance use ...... just stop at a Dans before arrival for presento's ...... then again theres insurance......


@Drover , here is exactly what you were referring to I think - oil's ain't oils Sol. So I guess you get what you pay for if you go that way.

"Ultimately, if it was as simple as using lead acid chargers, then the likes of REDARC, Enerdrive, Victron, Projecta, Intervolt and every other charger supplier in the country that make LiFePO4 specific chargers would not have spent tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop LiFePO4 specific models.

We get dozens of calls a month from dissatisfied customers (and trade resellers) specifically about this misinformation from sellers of other brands. They find that their chargers just don't work like they were promised and they have to upgrade charging systems after being fleeced of their hard earned cash by unscrupulous sellers of sub-standard batteries."

"No matter what they say in their marketing (which is really all it is - a made up marketing spiel) about their supposedly magic batteries that you can use any charger on, it is just totally wrong and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of LiFePO4 chemistry, the narrow voltage range that it operates in and the effects of using a multi-stage Lead acid charger to charge LiFePO4 cells."

Both the above are partial extracts from OFF ROAD LIVING web site pushing their own product I guess. I hope this finally puts this issue to bed for a while!!