17' Series Solar issues…

[Roadhouse]

Hi all,

Solar question.

Set up is original 140w panel into TPS1230 solar regulator and into standard battery charger (Setec ST-III), charging 2 x new AGM 100AH (XTM).

Going fine but needing more solar as using up power a bit.

Bought some 160w fold out panels (Ridge Rider) and paralleled them into the TPS1230 solar terminals and have an Anderson Plug on the end to connect the folding panels. Open circuit voltage less than max open circuit allowable in the TPS1230 solar regulator so all good there.

First couple of weeks working fine. Pumping in 20A or so, saw 24A once. Regulator can handle 30a so ok there.

Last couple of days have only seen 4A or so and today only 2a or so (late arvo).

I tested portable panels and voltage coming out is around 14.4V so they seemfine.

Tested solar input terminals on TPS1230 and voltage is changing every half a second from 12 to 15 to 12 to 16 to 14 to 16 to 12 etc etc.

It shows this if I have portable panels connected or disconnected.

What could be causing the voltage fluctuations and is that why we aren’t getting enough juice in to the batteries (pulled up after driving all day in the sun and battery was only on 12.3V).

Could the TPS1230 solar regulator be rooted?

 

[Roadhouse]

And when no sun (eg night) the voltage entering the solar charger is a steady 0.4v (full moon?!). Isn’t fluctuating at all.
So is it dodgy panel on top of van or perhaps dodgy solar regulator in van? Or a short somewhere?

 

[mikerezny]

First step is to test one panel at a time to see if you can isolate the problem.
i.e. disconnect the portable panel and observe the behaviour. If this is ok, then disconnect the existing panel and wire in only the fold out panels and observe the behaviour.

If you have a decent mutimeter isolate each panel. On a cool, clear morning measure the open circuit voltage and the short circuit current. That will give a reasonable guide as to whether each of the panels is working correctly.

It is generally not a good idea to wire panels directly in parallel unless you are going to put blocking diodes in series with each panel.
Do a Google search on solar panel blocking diodes or search this forum as this has been discussed here in numerous threads and in great depth.

I would suggest leaving the TPS1230 controlling your existing panel. And getting another controller to manage the fold out panels.
Did the portable panels not come with a solar controller?

With regard to the night time voltage. Disconnect all panels and read the voltage at the solar input terminals of the controller. You are probably just measuring reverse leakage.

 

[Boots in Action]

First step is to test one panel at a time to see if you can isolate the problem.
i.e. disconnect the portable panel and observe the behaviour. If this is ok, then disconnect the existing panel and wire in only the fold out panels and observe the behaviour.

If you have a decent mutimeter isolate each panel. On a cool, clear morning measure the open circuit voltage and the short circuit current. That will give a reasonable guide as to whether each of the panels is working correctly.

It is generally not a good idea to wire panels directly in parallel unless you are going to put blocking diodes in series with each panel.
Do a Google search on solar panel blocking diodes or search this forum as this has been discussed here in numerous threads and in great depth.

I would suggest leaving the TPS1230 controlling your existing panel. And getting another controller to manage the fold out panels.
Did the portable panels not come with a solar controller?

With regard to the night time voltage. Disconnect all panels and read the voltage at the solar input terminals of the controller. You are probably just measuring reverse leakage.

Further to @mikerezny response, did the folding panels (Ridge Rider) come with their own solar controllers? I have seen some folding solar controllers with and without their own solar controller. Do not have the folding panels connected with their own controllers as you do not want to have two controllers in series to battery. Also, when testing solar panels, you should have about 22.0 volts open circuit at around 25C. As temperature rises, open circuit (no load) will decrease to approx 18 to 19 volts only. Panel voltage when charging will probably drop to around 16.0 volts depending on battery charge. All measurements should be at the solar input point on controller, tested individually. The fluctuating readings on TPS1230 could be caused by two solar controllers operating in SERIES so make sure the TPS1230 is the only controller in the system.. If these are not the problem, it does not auger well for the proper operation of the TPS1230!

 

[Roadhouse]

Ah the joys of embarrassing yourself on a public forum!

Panel indeed has its own regulator which is causing the issue…

ignore the bit about seeing 20A or so pumping in previously - it was a different set of borrowed panels with no regulator before I bought these ones….

I shall bow out now!

 

[Drover]

Set up is original 140w panel into TPS1230 solar regulator and into standard battery charger (Setec ST-III), charging 2 x new AGM 100AH (XTM).

I note the above; the TPS 1230 should be connected directly to the batteries not anything else ............................

Around lunch time check each panels read out individually, I have my roof panels in parallel as then a bit of shading doesn't effect the whole system as much and I can easily add a portable to the system which isn't easy to do if in series, though my portable has the capability of joining the whole show on the van or connecting with its own reg which just happens to be a 1230 ....
It does sound like the reg is in a float cycle and your panels seem to be fine, I would have a look at the batteries, they should be connected with one battery positive gong to van and the other battery NEG going to van meaning your solar reg should have the POS lead to the Van POS on battery and the NEG to the Van NEG on the other battery, nothing should be connected to the posts/cable that joins the 2 batteries... if only connected to one battery then thats where the imbalance is occuring and I have found this often in various set ups over the years...

..................

 

[Drover]

 

[Boots in Action]

Ah the joys of embarrassing yourself on a public forum!

Panel indeed has its own regulator which is causing the issue…

ignore the bit about seeing 20A or so pumping in previously - it was a different set of borrowed panels with no regulator before I bought these ones….

I shall bow out now!

Aahhh @Roadhouse!!! Don't worry about it. We have all done it at some time or another. The only person who has not made a mistake of some sort, is the person who has done nothing. We all learn something new every day. Glad you are moving forward again - the value of being on this forum!!

 

[Roadhouse]

Aahhh @Roadhouse!!! Don't worry about it. We have all done it at some time or another. The only person who has not made a mistake of some sort, is the person who has done nothing. We all learn something new every day. Glad you are moving forward again - the value of being on this forum!!

Kind words but it is concerning!!

 

[Drover]

If you can sit back and laugh about it then nothing to be concerned about ...................... to come away with new knowledge is always good..... besides it gives @Boots in Action a good bash on his keyboard..........

Don't be concerned, even I make the odd error, though I try not to make many as Booties enjoys it too much.........

 

[chartrock]

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

 

[Drover]

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

Except on "that trip".........

---

 

[chartrock]

Except on "that trip".........

---

Your memory type.

 

[Macca_75]

Hi @Roadhouse

Firstly I'd suggest removing the standard regulator and throwing it in the bin. It really is a $10 piece of crap. For a few $$$ yu can grab a MPPT regulator. Most can be "programmed" to the correct voltages to help increase the life of your batteries (bulk, absorption and float). With the standard Jayco kit it will never fully charge and this will reduce the life of your battieries. Personally I like the Victron SmartSolar gear (they are a few hundred $$$ but really are considered the rolls royce of 12v gear).
Next compare the voltage of the panels on the van and portable with no load on them (ie. removed from regulator). If they are approx the same (somewhere around 18v vocc) you can actually use them in parrallel through the same regulator mentioned above - just run an Anderson from the MPPT to somwhere external and plug the panel straight in (no regulator). With Victron (eg. A SmartSolar 75/15) it means 75V in max, 15A out. Just right size it for the panels.

If you want to run a reg on each panel you can - with Victron you'll want a smartsense on the battery - this can create a network with both MPPT controllers so they run independently and don't "fight" each other.
2 regs not talking to each other will not be effective - the second will sense the higher voltage of the first and reduce it's charge accordingly (if that makes sense)

 

[mikerezny]

If you intend to put solar panels in parallel then you need to understand the need for blocking diodes. The main issue to consider is when one panel is in sunlight and the other is in partial or complete shade. This is quite a normal situation when connecting a portable panel placed in full sunlight in parallel with a roof-mounted panel in a shady spot. In this case, current from the panel in the sun will flow into the shaded panel.
There are two issues with this. One is that you are not getting a full current into the regulator. But worse still, there exists the possibility of damaging the shaded panel.
The solution is to put a blocking diode in series with each panel to prevent current flowing into either panel.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi @Roadhouse

Firstly I'd suggest removing the standard regulator and throwing it in the bin. It really is a $10 piece of crap. For a few $$$ yu can grab a MPPT regulator. Most can be "programmed" to the correct voltages to help increase the life of your batteries (bulk, absorption and float). With the standard Jayco kit it will never fully charge and this will reduce the life of your battieries. Personally I like the Victron SmartSolar gear (they are a few hundred $$$ but really are considered the rolls royce of 12v gear).
Next compare the voltage of the panels on the van and portable with no load on them (ie. removed from regulator). If they are approx the same (somewhere around 18v vocc) you can actually use them in parrallel through the same regulator mentioned above - just run an Anderson from the MPPT to somwhere external and plug the panel straight in (no regulator). With Victron (eg. A SmartSolar 75/15) it means 75V in max, 15A out. Just right size it for the panels.

If you want to run a reg on each panel you can - with Victron you'll want a smartsense on the battery - this can create a network with both MPPT controllers so they run independently and don't "fight" each other.
2 regs not talking to each other will not be effective - the second will sense the higher voltage of the first and reduce it's charge accordingly (if that makes sense)

All so true @Macca_75 , IF you have a Rolls Royce income!!! There is no doubt that any MPPT solar controller would be better than a TPS1230 PWM type controller. Additionally, with most Jayco setups involving the TPS1230 controller, it will only display battery voltage and amps in. Unless the loads are re-wired through the controller (see my previous posts regarding easy modification), there will not be any display for loads.
Now, depending on the depth of your wallet and need, you do not have to pay huge amounts (hundreds of dollars???) to get a proper MPPT controller. I paid only $135.00 (special price reduced from $149.00). That does all the readouts that the Victron does at less than half the price!! True, it does not have Bluetooth conductivity or the ability to print out daily/weekly records, but it does have all information (continuous logging) available on display screen including number of days operation, number of days full charge achieved, days float charge reached, number of amp hours produced, number of amp hours used and others, all cumulatively recorded, plus real time display of panel voltage, current IN and current OUT, battery temperature and whether in Boost or Float mode. Operator variable settings for max charge voltage and float, together with Low voltage disconnect user settings for battery low voltage disconnect and re-connect are available. So, without all the (unnecessary?) bells and whistles I can monitor (and set parameters) for all operations of solar charging without the Rolls Royce price. My unit is a 100/30 with lots of safety factors to prevent overload. Currently, I have 3 panels in SERIES and that only reaches 58.0 volts out of the 100 volt max, and a 30 amp max current output suits me fine. The Victron 75/15 may be suitable for @Roadhouse, but as he is only playing with PARALLEL connections, there is little reason to have a controller with a 75 volt max panel voltage input. However, if connecting 3 or more panels in parallel, I would like more than a 15A controller, preferably at least a 20A or 25A model.
I agree with you about having more than one controller connected to same battery and the problems that can occur, but to overcome that you will need another Victron device and more cost, not to mention the costs of more controllers. Where does it end??

Once again, it is a case of, if you have the need (and funds), then go for a bigger and (better??) unit, but if not , save your money. Quite often you can upgrade without having to spend hundreds of dollars.

 

[Boots in Action]

If you intend to put solar panels in parallel then you need to understand the need for blocking diodes. The main issue to consider is when one panel is in sunlight and the other is in partial or complete shade. This is quite a normal situation when connecting a portable panel placed in full sunlight in parallel with a roof-mounted panel in a shady spot. In this case, current from the panel in the sun will flow into the shaded panel.
There are two issues with this. One is that you are not getting a full current into the regulator. But worse still, there exists the possibility of damaging the shaded panel.
The solution is to put a blocking diode in series with each panel to prevent current flowing into either panel.

Correct @mikerezny . When a single panel is connected to battery with the solar controller in series, then the solar controller stops the back flow of current from battery through solar panel when shaded or at night. However, when two or more solar panels are connected in parallel to just the one controller, voltage and current is able to leak back from the operating panel into the shaded panel as the blocking diode is only in the controller, not in the line from the panel TO controller. Unfortunately, placing a blocking diode (silicon type) in series with each panel will reduce panel input voltage by up to 0.7 volts (unless you use Schottky diodes with only 0.2 volt drop). The only other way is to have separate controllers for each panel and that has its own problems with each controller wanting to control its own panel regardless of battery situation. If you are able to connect panels in SERIES and there are BYPASS diodes in your panels, then there is no loss in back flow, as the panel in sun will continue to produce without being affected by the shaded panel not producing. However, in connecting panels in SERIES, your controller must be able to handle the higher voltage, probably at least 36 volts for 2 panels instead of only 18 volts. This is usually only possible with a MPPT controller as most standard PWM controllers cannot handle a voltage higher than 25 volts without damage. No easy answers to get around the problem unless ALL panels in the same sun area.

 

[Drover]

I found the Epever 4210N MPPT controller to be best value when I went shopping, no need to buy extra bits, no need for wifi stuff as it has a readable screen, can do lithium and will handle more juice than I can generate ...... the 1230 is a basic pwm controller if your into off grid then worth upgrading but if mostly van park with the odd off grid camp not worth spending the dollars really....... My old PWM controller is running a house panel on the shed roof for boat, but its not a run of the mill PWM ... the old 200w house panel can still push out its rated 6amp, $40 a good buy for sure..

 

[Boots in Action]

I found the Epever 4210N MPPT controller to be best value when I went shopping, no need to buy extra bits, no need for wifi stuff as it has a readable screen, can do lithium and will handle more juice than I can generate ...... the 1230 is a basic pwm controller if your into off grid then worth upgrading but if mostly van park with the odd off grid camp not worth spending the dollars really....... My old PWM controller is running a house panel on the shed roof for boat, but its not a run of the mill PWM ... the old 200w house panel can still push out its rated 6amp, $40 a good buy for sure..

Yes @Drover , I was wondering when you might put in your little bit!! The Epever 4210N was not around when I got into MPPT controllers and appears to be a good unit, albeit dearer than what I paid for my controller. I also remember that your "old" Morningstar PWM unit was more than just a standard PWM unit. The fact that it can handle the higher voltage of the house panel (which is around 36.0 volts) is what sets it above the ordinary cheaper PWM type which would be lucky to handle anything over 25 volts.

 

[Roadhouse]

thanks guys as always

the ridge rider panels I bought as a stop gap work quite well now that I have them set up correctly! pumping in 20-25 amps combined and seems to keep things going well.

When we get back from our 4.5 month trip end of April I will get stuck into some upgrades.

New MPPT controller will be sought and upgrade to the panel and wiring.

We have done around 80 days off grid out of 90 days on the road and haven't run out of power yet but have been close! the uypgrades should improve things a lot.

Victron sounds good but I like a display on the unit so shall do a bit of research and see where we land.