on a serious note about home lpg cylinders

[poor but proud]

might be a good move to check your state regulations on where you have any home lpg gas cylinders installed, ours have been in the same place for over 30 years ,but they dont conform to qld. exclusion zones, and placement near specified ignition points , all comes down to either move the van out of the carport or move the gas cylinders, apparently if they are not compliant there can be an issue over insurance coverage if the setup has been identified , ignition sources include power points,plugs,fridges,hot water,pumps ,fans, meter boxes, and anything else which has the potential to create a spark, even a battery sitting on the ground within 3.5 meters of a cylinder valve is a nonconformance and leads to an immediate stoppage of supply. gas tanker and bottle swap, best to look at your own state regs as they may differ

 

[Drover]

Didn't think they have changed for QLD but depends if looking at small bottles or the larger household cylinders, I think the fit out regs changed a few years ago .... I did think it was no closer than 1.5m from a possible ignition source .............. a carport for van with cylinders should be okay as its not an enclosed space though a shed under 30sqm wouldn't be as it can contain 1 x 9kg bottle, Very confusing regulations no matter what the state ....

My shed will usually have 1 x 8.5kg bottle, 40 odd litres of diesel and petrol in Jerries, oils, greases, paint and Explosive Cat 4 , none over the storage limits but still enough to make a good flash and rumble .............. not forgetting a ute full of fuel and about 3 charged batteries and some electrical equipment ............. Guy Fawkes for sure. .......

My daughters place has 3 x 45kg bottles about 2 m from their gas HWS with a water pump similar distance on the other side including power points.....

 

[Boots in Action]

Didn't think they have changed for QLD but depends if looking at small bottles or the larger household cylinders, I think the fit out regs changed a few years ago .... I did think it was no closer than 1.5m from a possible ignition source .............. a carport for van with cylinders should be okay as its not an enclosed space though a shed under 30sqm wouldn't be as it can contain 1 x 9kg bottle, Very confusing regulations no matter what the state ....

My shed will usually have 1 x 8.5kg bottle, 40 odd litres of diesel and petrol in Jerries, oils, greases, paint and Explosive Cat 4 , none over the storage limits but still enough to make a good flash and rumble .............. not forgetting a ute full of fuel and about 3 charged batteries and some electrical equipment ............. Guy Fawkes for sure. .......

My daughters place has 3 x 45kg bottles about 2 m from their gas HWS with a water pump similar distance on the other side including power points.....

Hi Ian @Drover, there is a marked difference between stored gas cylinders and stored fuel (petrol or diesel). Although both have volatility and burn/explode, LPG gas cannot be SEEN but can be smelt. Being heavier than air, it finds the lowest level to spread around. Gasoline is usually very visible if leaking and fumes are very volatile like LPG. Good old diesel is less volatile and has smell, but that "greasy old stuff called diesel" is very hard to ignite unless there is considerable heat. However, both LPG and petrol have the potential to ignite/explode from a stray spark if mixture in the right proportions , but try lighting diesel with a spark is very difficult.

 

[poor but proud]

talking about 45kg household cylinders,1.5 meters arc 50 cm above valve and 3.5 ground arc from the centre of the base of the cylinder all sorts of measurements in relations doors windows vents and drains even a vehicle sitting on an open driveway within 3.5 meters of a cylinder is considered an ignition source ,both your daughters hot water system and pump would be suspect if the rules are enforced, the doors and windows in my van were included as they fell in the cone of exclusion along with the annex power point on the vans outside wall.

 

[Drover]

@poor but proud . Yep big difference between the 45's and the 9's, haven't really paid much attention to the household as I don't have them but certainly know when situations aren't what they should, try mentioning things to a builder about regs, so I shut up before daughter bites my head off ................... interesting that the van power point was an issue, understand about drains and I suppose vehicles but 3.5m ?? , some places that would mean next doors driveway, some places are that small it would include the barbie or fire pit .... Some good points raised, glad Im all electirc but like all Compliance if you have the gas ticket then its all good, thats why they have experts do these things, just keep the tickets in another place to prove things comply..... Did you have a gas bottle issue and someone ticked and crossed a few boxes, I wonder how many places would fail a check ????

Well this explains it ................... AS/NZ standard anyway ....... https://www.elgas.com.au/elgas-know...-location-regulations-compliance-certificate/


Yes @Boots in Action , fully aware of fuel, oil and gas volatility having transported them and carried a DG ticket around for decades ..... The safe storage of them all is very similar in regards to ignition sources, quanities of course varies, none can be carried in the cabin of a vehicle by rights, gas and petrol carried on the rear of a vehicle is vorbotten but no one regulates it so many are unaware, diesel is okay for the reasons you pointed out... the thing hardly mentioned in these regs is static electricity, that will set off numerous forms of liquid, in snow or desert static electricity can be an issue.... poor grounding and a spark, whoosh all gone.... when your clambering over the top of fuel tanks holding from 40,000lts to 2 million lts you tend to be fully aware of what not to do, thats includes around 30 ton of explosives or more ............. Im living proof I passed the course.....lol,lol.....

 

[poor but proud]

@poor but proud . Yep big difference between the 45's and the 9's, haven't really paid much attention to the household as I don't have them but certainly know when situations aren't what they should, try mentioning things to a builder about regs, so I shut up before daughter bites my head off ................... interesting that the van power point was an issue, understand about drains and I suppose vehicles but 3.5m ?? , some places that would mean next doors driveway, some places are that small it would include the barbie or fire pit .... Some good points raised, glad Im all electirc but like all Compliance if you have the gas ticket then its all good, thats why they have experts do these things, just keep the tickets in another place to prove things comply.....


Yes @Boots in Action , fully aware of fuel, oil and gas volatility having transported them and carried a DG ticket around for decades ..... The safe storage of them all is very similar in regards to ignition sources, quanities of course varies, none can be carried in the cabin of a vehicle by rights, gas and petrol carried on the rear of a vehicle is vorbotten but no one regulates it so many are unaware, diesel is okay for the reasons you pointed out... the thing hardly mentioned in these regs is static electricity, that will set off numerous forms of liquid, in snow or desert static electricity can be an issue.... poor grounding and a spark, whoosh all gone.... when your clambering over the top of fuel tanks holding from 40,000lts to 2 million lts you tend to be fully aware of what not to do, thats includes around 30 ton of explosives or more ............. Im living proof I passed the course.....lol,lol.....

the bit about the van power point was explained at great length!!!! i might decide to plug in some sparky appliance or i may plug in an appliance that was turned on and cause a spark inside the plug?? i also wonder where they are going to put cylinders on the current crop of small housing blocks, i have got a gas fitter coming tomorrow to tell me how much to move things around and get a compliance cert. this was all caused by the gas delivery guy with a tape measure and a camera followed by a refusal to supply, then another company gas fitter showed up to point me in the right direction (after 30 years where the cylinders sat) he said i was unlucky to run into a driver known locally as GOG. (god of gas ) who spends his leisure time reading the regulations

 

[DRW]

Those who must be obeyed are trying hard to ban any form of gas, what are the inspectors going to do then ??

 

[poor but proud]

Those who must be obeyed are trying hard to ban any form of gas, what are the inspectors going to do then ??

the situation is a mess because when the gas heater was installed it was legal with a cert. the caravan cover was legal when it was built and has building inspection and approval , the solar panels and wiring and meter box is legal and certified ,now it is legal to own and park a caravan on my own property, and i am allowed to park a car under my house and on my driveway, all good so far, but wait, when you combine all of these features and the regulations start to clash ,each authority wants to blame each other for not knowing the others rules and regs, at this stage we look like going back to an electric hot water service but the first quote was eye watering to say the least

 

[Drover]

What a load of rubbish, typical of regulators, so basically the gas is causing drama with everything else ????

I looked at fitting Solar HWS at home, quote was $6K, since my HW bill is only $250 a year it would be 22 years before I covered the cost and we'd be in our bluddy 90's, if you want to back track to full electric Id be going for off peak power for HW otherwise it will cost you a monza, I suppose the heating side would be a split system so probably run out to $$4-5K for both supply and fitted or more knowing what they charge nowadays ......................

I have friends who just use swap and go bottles that ight be the reason ....

 

[Boots in Action]

the situation is a mess because when the gas heater was installed it was legal with a cert. the caravan cover was legal when it was built and has building inspection and approval , the solar panels and wiring and meter box is legal and certified ,now it is legal to own and park a caravan on my own property, and i am allowed to park a car under my house and on my driveway, all good so far, but wait, when you combine all of these features and the regulations start to clash ,each authority wants to blame each other for not knowing the others rules and regs, at this stage we look like going back to an electric hot water service but the first quote was eye watering to say the least

Hi @poor but proud , sorry to hear about your hassle with HWS and gas supply. If you go all electric for your HWS, I can imagine just how expensive it can be. A 250L unit will cost about $850 plus while a 300L about $150 more and that is is just for the unit. Then you will have to have a dedicated 15A wiring circuit connected to the switchboard with its own circuit breaker. How far is potential HWS unit from switchboard and is there access for wiring?? Copper wiring is expensive!! All that before a concrete standing pad for cylinder, extra switches and copper tubing /fittings to join into existing copper line and the cost of labour for a Sparkie!!!
As far as electricity tariffs are concerned, there are two rates. There is "off peak" (the cheapest) which provides 8 hours of heating daily ONLY between 11.00pm and 6.00am and "controlled" which guarantees at least 18 hours of heating daily at the discretion timing of your supplier. Currently we have no hot water heating during the evening between 4.00pm and 10.00pm approx and have only a 250L unit which meets our needs. Definitely go for the larger storage capacity if you go onto the "off peak" rate. And then there are the latest building regulations!!! Good luck. Perhaps your name should be "still proud, but a lot lot poorer"?

 

[Drover]

Hi @poor but proud , sorry to hear about your hassle with HWS and gas supply. If you go all electric for your HWS, I can imagine just how expensive it can be. A 250L unit will cost about $850 plus while a 300L about $150 more and that is is just for the unit. Then you will have to have a dedicated 15A wiring circuit connected to the switchboard with its own circuit breaker. How far is potential HWS unit from switchboard and is there access for wiring?? Copper wiring is expensive!! All that before a concrete standing pad for cylinder, extra switches and copper tubing /fittings to join into existing copper line and the cost of labour for a Sparkie!!!
As far as electricity tariffs are concerned, there are two rates. There is "off peak" (the cheapest) which provides 8 hours of heating daily ONLY between 11.00pm and 6.00am and "controlled" which guarantees at least 18 hours of heating daily at the discretion timing of your supplier. Currently we have no hot water heating during the evening between 4.00pm and 10.00pm approx and have only a 250L unit which meets our needs. Definitely go for the larger storage capacity if you go onto the "off peak" rate. And then there are the latest building regulations!!! Good luck. Perhaps your name should be "still proud, but a lot lot poorer"?

Recent price check on HWS I did surprised me as it was about $1200 for a 250lt when only a couple of years ago when I fitted a new one here they were $850 but if its just a heater on gas I would just sell it and fit a split system .....

My Energex Tarrif 33 for the HWS is generally off from 1700-2100 and 0600-0900 and is 18c/kw while the general power is 27c/kw ............ but if you aren't wired up its not worth the effort of seperate circuit and needs its own meter but not a drama with most digital smart meters............

Sell up and move to warmer climes.....................

 

[poor but proud]

my reply to both Boots in Action and Drover , my good van friends , a 250 litre electric heater runs from $1100 to $1400- i was looking at a timer to only heat the water during daylight hours as the solar output tariff is now very low ,it is worth using and not exporting that power , but the first guy says that heat pumps are the way to go for the long haul (thats a big statement when you are 74),,,,basic , 250 litre with stainless steel tank over $5000 installed plus the timer around another $900
heat pump heater (i am about to google what that means ) over $7000, installed both" IF "there is space on circut breaker board otherwise a board upgrade with a price to be determined. bootie you are correct about my sign in name pity my name was not: rich and dont give a stuff:

 

[Drover]

So I would gather the only options to comply with regulations would be:

1 ............... Move gas bottle to new location since its the actual bottle thats the problem not the gas plumbing ..
2................. Change to full electric ................. overly expensive if you have to do a rewire...
3 ............... Just use 8.5kg bottles so nobody knows.
4................. Sell up..

Folk I know who have had heat banks all seem to say the same thing, bluddy useless, expensive units that have caused no end of problems, why I went plain old electric when I built, less costly to replace ............... If you haven't had an electric HWS at all the sparky work would be expensive all round and at our time in life not really worth it, so I would be trying for gas bottle relocation as the viable option ..................... even solar HW would require a 15 amp circuit and isn't cheap either just on its own .....


I have a mate who uses 8.5 bottles for his instant HWS and I wonder if his cost excuse is a Furphy ??? I'll have to check next time at his place..... I can imagine there would be plenty of places that don't comply, around here its all bottle delivery, no tanker so at least that makes the bottle zone smaller...