Expanda17.56-2 what options should we get?

[busybusymum]

I have just joined and posted under new members forum - the following info - but left a bit out so this has the works

My husband and I have 4 girls age 3 thru to 10 years and are looking at buying
an Expanda 17.56-2 Outback to replace our Hawk outback. Looking at buying new
to get the options etc we want and selling our 2006 Hawk privately. Most
current camping we do is 90% outside of established caravan parks, ie free
camps, bush camps or national park camps (mostly camps with pit or no toilets
and no or cold showers). We have 160watts of solar we would transfer to the new
van. Options we are looking at include 150litre fridge upgrade, external fold
table, 2 X100Amp battery external gas bayonet (for the Weber) inner spring
mattresses, control panel, extra 12 volt point internally, roll out awning, CD
am/fm stereo with external speakers. Other extras which we may use down the
track and are good for resale is the roof air and wind up TV aerial - so we will
get these as well.

Other extras we want to see others opinions on are the swivel coupling and
simplicity suspension plus extended A frame. Are these worth while?. We are
getting varied opinions from the couple of Jayco dealerships we have contacted.
I would have thought the coupling and suspension would be useful - but are they
overkill. We do like to go to interesting and off main road locations. Has
anyone got an extended A frame - are they useful and why.

One other option we thought of is an external shower for use eg at the beach
where you can wash sand off and shower in swimmers instead of inside - what do
people think - has anyone had and used both? or is it overkill

The main purpose in upgrading is for our big 2013/14 Australia 12 month trip. I
refused to go for 12 months in a Hawk with 4 girls. I thought the shower toilet
option would also be useful for o/night stops especially as girls go into early
teen years etc. We thought getting the van 6- 12 months out from the trip would
be good to get all the bugs out of the system - ie warranty issues covered.

What sorts of trips or roads have others taken their outback expandas on? For
our Aust trip we realise the Expanda will limit us a bit- we cant go everywhere
in the expanda- that is why we will pack 3 small 2 man tents and bedrolls on the
roof of the Prado so we can go to some more out of the way locations if desired.
But we are not sure whether we will be able to get to similar locations that we
have in our Outback Hawk?

We have a 150 series diesel prado and want a bit of advice on the tregg hitch option versus going the normal with the weight distribution system- my understanding is you cant have swivel coupling with the WDS is a WDS necessary?

 

[bigman0510]

ok, here is a start.
http://www.expandasdownunder.com/showthread.php/160-Sorry...-Been-posting-without-introducing

We have 160watts of solar we would transfer to the new
van. Options we are looking at include 150litre fridge upgrade, external fold
table, 2 X100Amp battery external gas bayonet (for the Weber) inner spring
mattresses, control panel, extra 12 volt point internally, roll out awning, CD
am/fm stereo with external speakers. Other extras which we may use down the
track and are good for resale is the roof air and wind up TV aerial - so we will
get these as well.

I have a 120w external panel that I am using aswell, but still have the factory solar installed also. Very good to have it for weight and for always putting a charge into your van.

I have the bigger fridge. AWESOME!!!! well worth it!!

I have the external table. I love it very handy being beside the slide out BBQ

Got 1 100ah battery at the moment changing to 2 120ah very soon.

didn't go with the mattress but would be good as foam is hard ( until yiu break it in!)

CD player with external speaker, got em... love em!

Have the roof air because we didn't want to lose the cupboard space.

Got the antenna I like the ease of the setup and have not have any trouble with reception....yet.

One other option we thought of is an external shower for use eg at the beach
where you can wash sand off and shower in swimmers instead of inside - what do
people think - has anyone had and used both? or is it overkill

Got the external shower and use it heaps for what you said.. the bloody sand and mud, everywhere with my kids... worth it!

The main purpose in upgrading is for our big 2013/14 Australia 12 month trip. I
refused to go for 12 months in a Hawk with 4 girls. I thought the shower toilet
option would also be useful for o/night stops especially as girls go into early
teen years etc. We thought getting the van 6- 12 months out from the trip would
be good to get all the bugs out of the system - ie warranty issues covered.

I have 2 girls and a young fella, shower/toilet option is fantastic!!. I think I love it more than them!

We have a 150 series diesel prado and want a bit of advice on the tregg hitch option versus going the normal with the weight distribution system- my understanding is you cant have swivel coupling with the WDS is a WDS necessary

I have the tregg hitch, I have had it before and I love it and am used to it. you can have a WDH with a tregg but requires a little bit of modification. we don't use one have airbags to level up the car as we go offroad a fair bit, I am lazy and couldn't be bothered taking them on or off and to be honest, the airbags work great for me.


hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more!!

 

[busybusymum]

Thanks bigman much appreciated. Looking at the site has given me a couple of more options - lights under the bunk and your concept of access door to rear boot. Would love feedback from others especially regarding the suspension and hitch and extended towbar!

 

[Four of us]

We don't have the extended drawbar but wish we did for the extra space for a tool box.

 

[bully66672]

G,day all.
I also updated from a hawk to a 17.56-2.
I have 4 boys around the same age and do the same type of caravanning.
I have never had a swivel coupling on any of my vans and it hasn't stopped me venturing off road.
You do have to be mindful if you are going to go hardcore off road which I wouldn't.
I managed to fit a good size toolbox on the front of my van with the standard size A frame.
I tow with a 105 series Landcruiser and would not attempt to take the expanda to the same locations I have taken the Hawk mainly due to the extra weight.
I have the external shower fitted and it is a great addition. I tend to use it more than the kids do.
This size van works well with 4 kids and should give you heaps of great adventures for many years.

 

[cruza driver]

We dont have the 17'' we have a 16'' and have towed it along the Oodnatta track and out through the Painted desert and it handled the conditions well that we encounted at the time but conditions can change quickly. I wouldn't hesitate doing it again. I did do a bit of preventitive maintenance to the Expanda before heading off including a stone deflector to protect the front of the van and the rear window of the Cruiser.

We also had a Hawk previously and upgraded to the Expanda and we are very happy :smile:
I went with the trigg option as I had it on the Hawk and have found it to be very good although we dont use WDH.

Check out Matty4 's thread he has towed his 17'' to a lot of places that makes the rest of us jealous :smile: including the GRR

 

[Gaz70]

what ever you decide to do ....do it while its getting built, then all the extra weight of the options goes onto the tare weight...not the payload....thus giving you more weight to carrying your generator/fuel/BBQ etc and all the normal stuff clothes and food..good luck!!!

 

[Matty4]

what ever you decide to do ....do it while its getting built, then all the extra weight of the options goes onto the tare weight...not the payload....thus giving you more weight to carrying your generator/fuel/BBQ etc and all the normal stuff clothes and food..good luck!!!

This is the best bit of advice, but just a warning. Make sure that all the factory options don't put the tare weight over the max tow rating of your vehicle. At the time when I picked mine up the ATM on the plate is 2350kg, since I was towing it with a Pajero rated to 2500kg all was fine. I have now sold that car and my current Territory is rated to tow 2300kg max. It still tows it great, but the legalities of towing it "could" be brought into question if something was ever to occur.

Needless to say, when the lease is up next year on the Terri it will be replaced with something legally capable of towing the van.

Good luck.

Matty

 

[bigman0510]

This is the best bit of advice, but just a warning. Make sure that all the factory options don't put the tare weight over the max tow rating of your vehicle. At the time when I picked mine up the ATM on the plate is 2350kg, since I was towing it with a Pajero rated to 2500kg all was fine. I have now sold that car and my current Territory is rated to tow 2300kg max. It still tows it great, but the legalities of towing it "could" be brought into question if something was ever to occur.

Needless to say, when the lease is up next year on the Terri it will be replaced with something legally capable of towing the van.

Good luck.

Matty

Too True!! With all the extras we got the ATM was 2456kg, we can tow 2500kg a close call but we have a few extras in there.

EDIT: Put down TARE instead of ATM...

 

[busybusymum]

Too True!! With all the extras we got the TARE was 2456kg, we can tow 2500kg a close call but we have a few extras in there.

We have a 2010 (150 series Prado) tow capacity 2500kg towball weight max 250. My understanding is that the ATM weight needs to be below 2500kg. But I suppose some of the extras mean that we wont be carrying other stuff that we carry now. ie the shower/toilet/external shower means no more portapotti, shower tents or coleman hotwater systems etc.

 

[Klugerclan]

Our Kluger is rated to 2000kg and the 17.56.1 comes in at 1,640 I think. Doesn't leave too much of a margin when you start talking bikes / beer / annexe etc ! As it seems there are a number of us playing relatively close to the recommended limit, had anyone had any significant 'moments' when towing where the weight of the van has become an issue ? I don't think I can recall any comments going through old posts, everyone usually says how well their cars are pulling.....

 

[busybusymum]

My understanding from our dealership when enquiring about purchasing a OB17.56-2 (which we are still researching the options on) is that it is the ATM weight that is important when towing. This is the TARE weight plus a weight allowance for what you are going to put in the van eg clothes water gas, outdoor chairs etc etc. There is a link to a website below that may be useful - not sure whether the link will work - if not just google it. The ATM weight I think this is what the RTA is also guided by. Not sure how insurance works out with any of this - would be worth asking the insurance coys? We are just trying to research this to make sure we stick below the ATM weight not the TARE weight. How does all this work when your vehicle is loaded up with a roof rack + 4 kids and extra fridge in the back of the 4WD I'm not sure!

http://www.safetowing.com/?a=6

 

[bigman0510]

We have a 2010 (150 series Prado) tow capacity 2500kg towball weight max 250. My understanding is that the ATM weight needs to be below 2500kg. But I suppose some of the extras mean that we wont be carrying other stuff that we carry now. ie the shower/toilet/external shower means no more portapotti, shower tents or coleman hotwater systems etc.

Correct.... it does the ATM does have to be below or at the tow capacity of your vehicle. It generally doesn't mean your vehicle can't tow anything over that amount, but if you are over and you have an accident, your insurance company will have to pay $0. (I originally said TARE instead of ATM above) I think our TARE was about 1860kg or something like that.

 

[Matty4]

Yep...as bigman said.
Pretty much any vehicle could tow more than its rated capacity, some would do it quite comfortably and others not so, but the issue is really about the legalities. If you are travelling along minding your own business and are side-swiped or hit by another vehicle (they're at fault in this scenario too BTW) and both your $50-60K vehicle and $40-50K van are totalled and their insurance company assessor notices that the van you were towing had a rated ATM of more than the car could legally tow, there is a mighty big hole there for them to just walk away from it, same for your insurance if you're deemed to be at fault if something ever happens.

Thats $90-100K I'm not prepared to lose!!!!

Plus I've always been of the belief that I would rather have a tow vehicle of similar weight to that being towed, otherwise it can end up being the tail wagging the dog....

Cheers,
Matty

 

[straydingo]

Remember its not just the ATM of the van but the ball weight.
A Kluger has a max 200kg on the ball, and Jayco estimates a standard 17.56-1 model is 160kg and O/B is 185kg.
However, for Toyota the ball weight is also dependent on how much load is in the car.
Tare weight of the Kluger V6 4WD is listed around 1900kg, and it's max weight is 2720kg = 820kg of load. Take off weight of driver and passengers, a full tank of fuel (about 65kg), and any luggage (inc on the roof) etc, and what is left is your maximum ball weight.

This is where we got caught. I had the Pathfinder weighed and found I only have 150kg left, but had already ordered a van which Jayco estimates at 185kg. After much, much, much, much research I decided I'll make do for another 6 months and then start to look for something better. (or tell 2 of the 3 kids they can't go in the car cos it makes it go over limit). In my case, I also have steel bar and winch etc which adds up. I also have a set of 300kg scales so I can check the 'actual' ball weight next errk once I get it. AAMI did say if a cvan and car is involved in an accident it is something they check. A certain 'over-allowance' is acceptable, but if more than 20%, bye bye insurance....

Not all manufacturers work to the above formula (eg Nissan patrol will still have 200kg on the ball once max load in the vehicle is reached) but it applies to most


Matty
It is still legal to have a ATM greater than the tow vehicle allowance. The 'actual' weight can't exceed the max tow weight. However, yes it makes it more difficult to prove otherwise, and many 4wd also have Combined Vehicle Mass ratings so that it restricts the option of say "no, all that was in the car, not the van".

 

[achjimmy]

If you are travelling along minding your own business and are side-swiped or hit by another vehicle (they're at fault in this scenario too BTW) and both your $50-60K vehicle and $40-50K van are totalled and their insurance company assessor notices that the van you were towing had a rated ATM of more than the car could legally tow, there is a mighty big hole there for them to just walk away from it, same for your insurance if you're deemed to be at fault if something ever happens.

Thats $90-100K I'm not prepared to lose!!!!

Plus I've always been of the belief that I would rather have a tow vehicle of similar weight to that being towed, otherwise it can end up being the tail wagging the dog....

Cheers,
Matty

Matty whilst i totally agree with your towing philosophy above and no way advocate or suggest people go over the limits.
But your example is a bad one, their insurance assessor could do nothing other than report you to authorities if they knew or thought you were over limit. They would have to prove you were at fault or you contributed (and being on the correct side of the road even overloaded would not contribute) . In actual fact (and my father did this with the NRMA) you do not have to give the at fault drivers insurance assessor full access to your vehicle. The other driver is at fault and has damaged your property under common law rights you can make claim on the at fault driver for the reasonable cost of repairing the vehicle to its original state. When you do this the insurance companies will try to push and shove you, but in my father’s case he just kept sending letters of demand to the at fault driver for repairs, the insurance company gave up and paid him in full for the repair quote he had obtained without them inspecting the vehicle (they had visually sighted it for damage, but not accessed it). Insurance companies like to take control and most people are happy with them handling everything, but unless it’s your insurance you are claiming on they have no “contractual” rights over you

 

[Klugerclan]

Australian law (Article 54 of the insurance Contracts Act) says that in the event there is a breach of the policy terms and conditions, if the reason for the breach did not contribute to the cause of the loss in any way, then full policy coverage remains in force.

Using the example above, if you are overweight and jack-knife and crash into someone, you are in trouble. If you are overweight and not at fault in any way and someone crashes into you, you should be fine. This is how the law works in practice....

 

[Klugerclan]

If you get the chance have a read, this can be useful to know for the other common insurance policies we all buy:

INSURANCE CONTRACTS ACT 1984 - SECT 54
Insurer may not refuse to pay claims in certain circumstances
(1) Subject to this section, where the effect of a contract of insurance would, but for this section, be that the insurer may refuse to pay a claim, either in whole or in part, by reason of some act of the insured or of some other person, being an act that occurred after the contract was entered into but not being an act in respect of which subsection (2) applies, the insurer may not refuse to pay the claim by reason only of that act but the insurer's liability in respect of the claim is reduced by the amount that fairly represents the extent to which the insurer's interests were prejudiced as a result of that act.

(2) Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, where the act could reasonably be regarded as being capable of causing or contributing to a loss in respect of which insurance cover is provided by the contract, the insurer may refuse to pay the claim.

(3) Where the insured proves that no part of the loss that gave rise to the claim was caused by the act, the insurer may not refuse to pay the claim by reason only of the act.

(4) Where the insured proves that some part of the loss that gave rise to the claim was not caused by the act, the insurer may not refuse to pay the claim, so far as it concerns that part of the loss, by reason only of the act.

(5) Where:

(a) the act was necessary to protect the safety of a person or to preserve property; or

(b) it was not reasonably possible for the insured or other person not to do the act;

the insurer may not refuse to pay the claim by reason only of the act.

(6) A reference in this section to an act includes a reference to:

(a) an omission; and

(b) an act or omission that has the effect of altering the state or condition of the subject‑matter of the contract or of allowing the state or condition of that subject‑matter to alter.

I insure airplanes so I hope you all don't think I am as much of a nerd as you must be thinking !

 

[achjimmy]

Kluger Clan if i was you i would be very sure of my ATM as other have said. i know somebody with a 2t Avan and a Kluger and it tows it very well. i think the Kluger may well be a vechile that is a little underspeced in its towing ability but this dosent help you in the unlikley event of an accident. My assumption is that the Kluger is 4wd not a 2wd? are they both rated the same for towing?

 

[busybusymum]

Wow - What an intriguing and great discussion - lots in there that we have been thinking about - I'm going to have to go through and put in a vote of thanks for some of the entries. As a result I have gone back and asked the dealer for an estimated ATM with all the extras we want - have included extra length Aframe and simplicity suspension, external shower (but not the 16 inch wheels - could not see the point as the Prado has 17 inch so not interchangeable) - estimate that came back was ATM of 2400 to 2450 - cutting it very fine given our max tow weight of the Prado is 2500kg. This means busybusydad will have to stongly veto everything 4 girls and I want to pack and I will tell him NO GOLFSTICKS! or he will have to leave one of the kids at home. Lucky we have lightweight kids! Next vehicle will have to be a 200series cruiser I think!