Electrical Upgrading from Gel battery to Lithium in Starcraft 17.58-3 OB as well swapping out TPS 1230

[Jared01]

Hello,

I have a 3 year old Jayco Starcraft 17.58-3 Outback running on the original Ritar 100AH SLA Gel battery.

We have the original 120W Jayco installed solar panel on the roof, other panels installed, standard TPS 1230 solar controller, Setec ST35-III and no compressor fridge (just the standard 3-way fridge which is good enough for us).

About 2 years ago, we installed a diesel heater and sometimes we get down to 12.2v in the morning after use of the heater overnight.


I have been thinking about swapping out the Gel battery and replacing with a 100AH (or possibly 120/130/150 AH) lithium LifePo4 battery.

I have also been thinking about getting a portable solar panel as well as swapping out the TPS 1230 and installing a Victron MPPT 100/30.


Whilst I am just becoming familiar with the lithium technology, I have a few questions if anyone may be able provide assistance.

- Can I just swapout the SLA Gel battery and replace with a lithium battery such as a 100AH LifePo4 battery?
- I believe the Setec ST35-III only outputs 13.65DC (at 35A to charge battery/power connected loads). Will that be may not be high enough to fully charge the lithium battery and or could it reduce the lifespan of the battery overtime?
- Is the above 13.65DC 35A the same output when the Setec is powered from 12v by the car and 240v when powered by mains?

If the Setec is not suitable, I am not sure if I need to re-wire a lot of things if itis replaced, or if I can just disconnect the charging circuit, install a DC-to-DC charger connected to the car 12v, possibly same DC-to-DC charger can be connected to 240v (so battery is chargeable when onsite), maybe have an inbuilt solar controller too otherwise install something like the Victron MPPT 100/30 and be done with it?

Has anyone done something similar?

 

[Drover]

I would add another gel battery and replace the regulator with a MPPT and certainly add a portable, easier, cheaper and really get a better result, if your solar is up to speed the Setek is redundant....Big Mal doesnt use a 240v battery charger at all, solar charges the lot.

 

[Boots in Action]

I would add another gel battery and replace the regulator with a MPPT and certainly add a portable, easier, cheaper and really get a better result, if your solar is up to speed the Setek is redundant....Big Mal doesnt use a 240v battery charger at all, solar charges the lot.

Hi @Jared01, @Drover has already given you some advice on your suggested change over, but to do so is not as easy as you think. Just to get a few things straight on the Setec ST35 Series III, it has a max charge voltage of only 14.0 volts and a float voltage of 13.8 volts. This is quite suitable for Gel batteries (perhaps a little low on charge...14.2 to 14.4 volts as per the side of Ritar Gel battery. However, it is certainly NOT suitable for charging a Lithium Phosphate battery properly. See attached.
If you are getting down in power in the morning, you can do many things to upgrade power generation. Fit another solar panel (portable or fixed), is the cheapest option. The TPS 1230 is a pretty ordinary PWM type and unless load is connected through the controller, you only have displays for voltage and input current. There is no provision for output current used being displayed unless load is connected through controller. I have previously posted threads on this, but understand this may not be too easy for a lot of setups. Also, no user adjustable LVD or LVR settings or max charge voltage setting either, for higher charge voltage. All fixed!
The next thing to reap more solar into battery is to connect up a MPPT controller which will generate more current under most conditions than your TPS 1230 PWM type. You do not have to purchase the very expensive Vitron and display monitor unless there is a problem with where unit is placed to be easily seen. As long as you get a proper MPPT controller, not a cheap type just marked as MPPT.
That will give you more current to charge battery, but you need to get another battery if you need more storage.
The Setec will provide the above figures when connected to 240v power, but connection to tug will depend on type of alternator, (there are posts on this also) and how well connected wiring wise. Even if perfect and minimal loss in wiring, there is a power diode in circuit in the Setec which will reduce voltage from tug to van battery by approx 0.7 volt. So not the best but still workable. A DC - DC charger will overcome this to some extent.
Yes, lithium phosphate batteries ARE great, but you need to be fully geared up to get the best out of that system and the advantages are costly initially. If you have the money to spend (I don't), then go for it but you will need to change things a lot. When you read through the attached article (and there are more too), you will have a lot to think about. Even "smart" chargers with multi stage programs are not suitable for charging Lithium Phosphate batteries...No soft slow start on charge, different charging parameters and no float stage either. And Lithium Phosphate batteries should not be left unused in a fully charged state according to the info provided. I think I would be going down the ideas above or as @Drover suggested, but it is your money. Tread your own path!

https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/how-to-charge-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries/

 

[Boots in Action]

I would add another gel battery and replace the regulator with a MPPT and certainly add a portable, easier, cheaper and really get a better result, if your solar is up to speed the Setek is redundant....Big Mal doesnt use a 240v battery charger at all, solar charges the lot.

Hi again @Drover, @KECL and @Jared01, just following up on my original response regarding Lithium Phosphate battery charging, here is another link to a report from the renown company "Enerdrive". They set out the differences in our various chargers for Lithium and also AGM, Gel and Sealed Lead Acid. The more you go into it, (changing to a Lithium Phosphate battery) the greater the necessity to have all your electrical charging equipment setup for just Lithium charging, and not try to use existing charging equipment/methods . Even our sophisticated Multi stage chargers are not the best for Lithium and the standard van chargers (Setec) are more likely to cause premature failure. However, I do believe that the later BMPro 35 may be suitable. It also has provision for solar and a suitable controller for charging Lithium batteries built into it. Going by the info in these two links, it appears that technology has overtaken existing charging patterns we have been used to. And that means our very sophisticated MPPT controllers too, as they have do not meet lithium parameters such as different charge voltage sensing, and storage conditions, not to mention Lithium do not like, or have a need for, Float or Equalization charging . Aaahhhh!! Progress!!!!

https://enerdrive.com.au/2017/11/29/can-charge-lithium-battery-lead-acid-charger/

 

[Drover]

But really if you go for all the expense of fitting lithium then your looking at off grid camping, so would have decent solar panels with reg and no need to worry about fitting a 240v charger at all, so whatever is running the lights and stuff be it a basic Setek or BM could stay and have nothing to do with battery charging.... Even my antiquated set up doesn't use a 240v charger, in fact when the old one dies I now wonder why I replaced it for like my 7 stage charger in the shed it never gets used..............

 

[Crusty181]

But really if you go for all the expense of fitting lithium then your looking at off grid camping, so would have decent solar panels with reg and no need to worry about fitting a 240v charger at all, so whatever is running the lights and stuff be it a basic Setek or BM could stay and have nothing to do with battery charging.... Even my antiquated set up doesn't use a 240v charger, in fact when the old one dies I now wonder why I replaced it for like my 7 stage charger in the shed it never gets used..............

My old school setup is a no fuss cost efficient AGM system that fills all our needs with ample surplus. A lithium system (or bigger AGM system for that matter) cant really top that because I don't really need more of what Im not using. The weight argument is just tiresome, my van weighs a whopping 3200kg, adding to that a variable weight component that fluctuates 100s of kgs, 30kg up or down for batteries is a completely irrelevant and baseless point. Just our toilet tank fluctuates half that weigh saving. Im all for people spending up big on lithium because thats what will push the cost down to AGM prices, where I might take a look. At the end of the day, we have a caravan that we use for holidays, and for the costs I want to be spending a lot of time in the van, and non of it in c/parks. Personally I be a little embarrassed to be spending up big on lithium and then spend 3/4 of my time in a c/parks, parked in the avenue of shame right next to the $80k offroad trailer and pimped up 4x4 tug fitted with road tyres.

 

[Bluey]

You free camping at christmas @Crusty181 giveing up the van parks ?? is your beach site up for grabs surly you dont want to be parked next to a pimped up 4x4 and massive caravan With his lithium battery blasting out his aircon noise scratching his nuts as he say Gday then his water hose slips of its connection spraying you or going in the open window of the troopy such fun at caravan park anyway if your not going lets us know someone here would love that site maybe me ???

 

[Jared01]

Thanks for the advice and comments so far.

Most of our camping is not in caravan parks and therefore not on powered sites.

As far as I understand, if I was going to convert to a lithium battery, it would go along the lines of this:

- Disconnect the charging cables coming out of the Setec ST35-III connecting to the battery (to stop it charging the battery whilst driving as well as when plugged into 240v)
-Swapout the Gel battery and install a lithium battery
-Install something like the Victron Orion-Tr DC-DC 12/12-18 in the caravan, connected to the lithium battery, powered from the car, to charge it when driving
-Install something like the Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/30 (hopefully a straight swapout from the TPS 1230)

Both the Victron models above can have adjustable voltages set so are good for the lithium battery.
I could also get a 240v to 12v power transformer to power the DC-DC charger if we are on a powered site to charge the batteries if ever required.

I am not sure if there is only one set of cables from the Setec and if disconnecting them (to stop the charging function) if this would also disconnect the ability of the battery to power the 12v items powered via the Setec?

As far as I understand, it is possible and something like the above should be what is required, whether or not I want to go down this track, or just swapout the solar controller (I am quite keen to do that anyway) and get a portable panel and leave the battery as is.

 

[Crusty181]

You free camping at christmas @Crusty181 giveing up the van parks ?? is your beach site up for grabs surly you dont want to be parked next to a pimped up 4x4 and massive caravan With his lithium battery blasting out his aircon noise scratching his nuts as he say Gday then his water hose slips of its connection spraying you or going in the open window of the troopy such fun at caravan park anyway if your not going lets us know someone here would love that site maybe me ???

Unfortunately the best beach front site on the east coast is locked in for life, and there are 2 dogs for every person so youll hate it. Theres no water on that site, so no fear of getting smacked with the neighbours hose

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks for the advice and comments so far.

Most of our camping is not in caravan parks and therefore not on powered sites.

As far as I understand, if I was going to convert to a lithium battery, it would go along the lines of this:

- Disconnect the charging cables coming out of the Setec ST35-III connecting to the battery (to stop it charging the battery whilst driving as well as when plugged into 240v)
-Swapout the Gel battery and install a lithium battery
-Install something like the Victron Orion-Tr DC-DC 12/12-18 in the caravan, connected to the lithium battery, powered from the car, to charge it when driving
-Install something like the Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/30 (hopefully a straight swapout from the TPS 1230)

Both the Victron models above can have adjustable voltages set so are good for the lithium battery.
I could also get a 240v to 12v power transformer to power the DC-DC charger if we are on a powered site to charge the batteries if ever required.

I am not sure if there is only one set of cables from the Setec and if disconnecting them (to stop the charging function) if this would also disconnect the ability of the battery to power the 12v items powered via the Setec?

As far as I understand, it is possible and something like the above should be what is required, whether or not I want to go down this track, or just swapout the solar controller (I am quite keen to do that anyway) and get a portable panel and leave the battery as is.

Hi @Jared01 , as I understand it, all you say is correct. If you wish to NOT have the Setec charge your battery (whatever the type) from 240v , all you have to do is switch off /disconnect the 240 volt power plug connecting the grid to the Setec in van, but leave the "Power On" switch (next to the Setec) in the "on" position. There will be NO charging of battery by Setec, and you will still have 12 volt power available from your battery to run your 12 volt appliances. 240 volt power will still be available to your other 240v equipment while still connected to grid in van park to run your 3 way fridge normally and any other appliances. Battery recharging would then rely on solar input through your controller and via current from your tug through a DC - DC charger while driving.

 

[Brente1982]

^^^^ or a dedicated 240v charged plugged into the socket the setec/bmpro unit would normally be plugged into. This is especially useful if you have a lithium setup.

 

[Drover]

@Jared01 If you went that way all you would do to stop the Setek charging would be to disconnect the 12v input from car to Setek at the Setek leaving the Setek connected to battery as this would operate your van 12v system, no need for a DC-DC unit from car to charge as you have solar panels doing this job, and when in a caravan park just flip the battery switch to off,the Setek would then supply 12v to appliances as the 240 would be supplying it, maybe put a diode set up on the Setek/battery line to only allow flow from battery to setek and not the other way then you wouldn't have to use a switch........... Still a lot of money for little gain.

 

[Bluey]

Unfortunately the best beach front site on the east coast is locked in for life, and there are 2 dogs for every person so youll hate it. Theres no water on that site, so no fear of getting smacked with the neighbours hose

But you bag out parks there not that bad are they enjoy your stay as we all do

 

[Crusty181]

But you bag out parks there not that bad are they enjoy your stay as we all do

You've got the wrong ombre there @Bluey. The Princess loves the coast and the beach so we have precious little choice on the east coast, so we are regular partakers in the c/park experience particularly over the Xmas school holidays. I don't think Ive ever dumped on any c/park Ive stayed in, Im don't have any great expectations for c/parks, only if its in the area I want to be, or if its convenient for me or if its near the water, if none of these I wouldn't be there and the c/park itself or its amenities are largely irrelevant to me.

 

[Shantyspoon]

Hi all. I'm looking at changing our 2015 14.44-4 ob over to lithium. (As I already have all the lithium setup from previous camper)
It has the setec st20-111 currently in it that is only setup to change leadacid/agm batteries.
But because this system also runs all the 12v in the van when connected to mains I want to keep using it.
Dover mentioned running a diode between setec and battery to prevent charging but I thought maybe another idea would be a 240v relay that isolates the battery when mains is detected? Pros and cons of each solution?

I can see in the conversations above everyone dismisses lithium and recommends sticking with AGM but prices have come down in the last 2 years so I think it's a good time to find a solution to converting the older vans with setecs to accommodate lithium batteries.

-s

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi all. I'm looking at changing our 2015 14.44-4 ob over to lithium. (As I already have all the lithium setup from previous camper)
It has the setec st20-111 currently in it that is only setup to change leadacid/agm batteries.
But because this system also runs all the 12v in the van when connected to mains I want to keep using it.
Dover mentioned running a diode between setec and battery to prevent charging but I thought maybe another idea would be a 240v relay that isolates the battery when mains is detected? Pros and cons of each solution?

I can see in the conversations above everyone dismisses lithium and recommends sticking with AGM but prices have come down in the last 2 years so I think it's a good time to find a solution to converting the older vans with setecs to accommodate lithium batteries.

-s

Hi @Shantyspoon , as no one has responded to your post, I have been thinking about it and put forward my two cents' worth.
Firstly, I personally do NOT need further power for my 2013 Penguin. I have a 135ah AGM, a very efficient MPPT controller and up to 580 watts of portable solar panels connected in SERIES. No requirement or incentive to change, and I have greater more useful priorities for my hard earned cash. But then there are others in a different position and willing to spend their money to upgrade? thus meeting their higher demands for power when off grid.

IMHO, there are three things that need to be done to convert to Lithium power and still use some of the existing electrics.
1. Disconnect the existing Setec ST20 Series III at the 240 volt three pin GPO. This will prevent the Setec trying to charge a Lithium battery with the wrong algorithm. The Setec will still operate all the accessories with fused lines with any 12 volt battery power from any installed battery, but you no longer have 240 volt power to charge battery or continuous 12 volt power if battery not installed.
2. To replace charging ability, purchase and fit a suitable lithium charger to charge the LITHIUM battery. It can be plugged into the same GPO that was previously used for the Setec. Suggest one capable of charging at at least 30 amps and also has provision to provide continuous power at 12 to 13 volts without battery. All control of battery voltage and charging current is then in the hands of the Lithium charger. In this particular case, the output lines from Lithium charger would be connected directly to battery via a fused line. No connection to Setec should be made other than what is existing. Setec would then get all 12 volt power for distribution to accessories from Lithium battery.
3. Charging of van battery from tug would only be possible with a DC to DC charger as voltage/control of alternator output would be unsuitable, especially with today's "smart" chargers. The DC to DC system would allow you to customise the requirements for your very expensive Lithium battery.

So you can see why a lot of vanners are going to be slow in changing to a lithium set up. Any way you look at it, there is a large cost to change over. If the need is there, then go for it!! If you have already purchased the expensive Lithium battery/ies, you still need to purchase a suitable battery charger suitable for Lithium algorithm. The same would apply to any solar controller - would have to be a MPPT with user settings to suit, (no extra solar panels with ordinary PWM solar controllers on the back of panel/s could be used) not to mention vehicular charging. Whilst I am sure you and I can navigate the electrical circuits for this change over, there are plenty out there who would have to call upon the expertise of a knowledgeable sparkie and pay him also. Then the vanner has to be able to know how the system works.

This response is provided in good faith and is not against the use of Lithium systems if that was provided for originally.

 

[Drover]

Nail on the head I reckon @Boots in Action , I would just unplug the Setek to stop it charging, it would then be just a 12v distribution unit, connect up your lithiums to it with a good MPPT solar reg thats happy doing lithiums keeping them up to speed and a few hundred watts on the roof...................... If your solar panels are set up for off grid no real need for charging from 240..... if you park it up in a shed then just a small panel on shed roof that plugs into an external Anderson on van which will keep the lithium happy, they don't need a continuous trickle like AGM/GEL/Calcium jobs.

I would really like 200ah of lithium but the price is still more than I can handle even though they would get a few months use each year... the cheapies down around the $600 mark I am just suss of, the weight saving is very attractive to me, we do 98% off grid at least.

Wouldn't have been me with the idea of a diode in line to stop the charging, I always went with the pull the plug idea.....

 

[Shantyspoon]

Thankyou dover and boots in action. I have ordered a diode to give it a go but will probably just disconnect the 240v from setec and run a lithium charger of sorts as you suggested.
Currently my lithium has a dc to dc on the side of the battery box so I have already wired in solar input and tug power.
Will see how it goes anyway

-s

 

[Boots in Action]

Thankyou dover and boots in action. I have ordered a diode to give it a go but will probably just disconnect the 240v from setec and run a lithium charger of sorts as you suggested.
Currently my lithium has a dc to dc on the side of the battery box so I have already wired in solar input and tug power.
Will see how it goes anyway

-s

Hi @Shantyspoon and others thinking about changing over to Lithium batteries, I found this link which backs up my post about the changes needed to properly charge Lithium batteries. The lithium batteries are great, even though expensive initially. But without the proper charging systems, be it solar, vehicular or 240 volt chargers, you need to have the correct charging equipment. Trying to use charging systems for Lead Acid batteries (AGMs or GEL) on Lithium is certainly NOT recommended as the attached link explains. Essential reading for those contemplating such a change without converting all the ancillary charging equipment as well.

Can I Charge A Lithium Battery With A Lead Acid Charger? | Offroad Living

Wondering if you can charge a LiFePO4 lithium battery with a lead acid charger? Here we discuss the use of lead acid, AGM, and normal chargers for lithium.

offroadliving.com.au

 

[Jared01]

Thanks for all the feedback and a little update as I ended up swapping out the battery and solar charge controller.


I looked into this for quite some time and ended up purchasing the following:
-100ah lithium battery
-Victron SmartSolar 100/30 MPPT
-Victron Blue Smart IP65 Charger 12V/25A (so can charge battery when at home, if required)
-Already had a Victron Energy SmartShunt 500A/50mV

1). Disconnected the 12v cable from the car that was plugged into Setec (so Setec would not try to charge battery from car 12v, which was quite low amps anyway it turns out).
2). Disconnected Setec transformer that plugs into 240v socket under the bunk (so Setec is not powered up by 240v). Setec is still powered by battery whilst other 240v items in caravan still get their direct 240v outside of Setec.
3). From 120w rooftop solar panel, disconnected cabling from Topray solar tps 1230, wired cables into 240v switch (so can take it out of the loop if in the shade), moved cables from battery and into Victron SmartSolar MPPT, and finally added an anderson plug under caravan that plug into Victron SmartSolar (so can plug in folding portable 160w solar panel).

All went well and charging of battery is purely from solar panels (so when stationary or when towing). If need additional solar, can add in additional 160w panel to MPPT and if rooftop 120w was in the shade, I just flick the switch to disconnect it (as I believe the lowest producer is the boss).

Had this setup since last winter and works as planned. Can revert everything if required and take out the parts if I decide to upgrade the caravan.

Yet to be on a powered site and hope things don't go boom when 240v is plugged in. *I might triple check the transformer I unplugged from 240v socket under bunk was for Setec to confirm it then has nothing to do with 240v and should be good.


All in all, a bit of money spent but works well, tested battery DoD and got 90ah out of it before it shutdown!