14' Series Newbie Help

[ash99]

Hi All,

I have a bit of a drawn out question I am hoping I can get some help with. Hopefully this is the right place for it. Please go easy on me as I am very new to this.

Firstly, I have a VF2 Commodore SSV with 2100KG tow pack.

Looking at the manual for the car the specs are as follows
Towball Limit: 210kg/2100kg
Care Tare: 1730kg
Load Limit: 480kg. Not sure if this is the same as Payload.

We are a family of 3. I will allow 240kg which is heaps I think.
This leaves 240kg of load limit left.
The manual states that the load limit includes passengers luggage and installed accessories but does not mention ball weight. The only mention of the tow pack is that I need to allow 25kg of the load limit for the weight of the hardware.

Does this mean that I can add 210kg to the towbar so long as the axle load limits aren't exceded. They are F: 1100kg R: 1300kg.

The section of the manual that mentions the tow pack only mentions the towball limit and not exceeding the load limits of the axles but makes no mention of the load limit.

I am very confused.

Next question.
I have recently rented a 14.44-4 Outback with ATM of 1850kg. I towed this with absolutely no issues from Melbourne to Echuca and back. I had the correct WDH on the car and followed all the directions regarding keeping the car level and measuring the amount of drop at each axle. I managed to have the car setup within about 5 to 10 mm of the standard ride height which I was pretty impressed with.

We have now decided to go ahead with buying a van, 14.44-4.

I initially decided I would just get the touring version which has an ATM of 1740kg. BUT... I also have added things like Battery, Solar etc which would push the weight up toward that of the Outback which is quoted as 1935kg ATM. My thinking is that it isn't much of a push price wise for the Outback, the dealer has quoted me 2K difference. My guess is that resale will be better on the Outback.
I am not planning on doing any real off road work unless I upgrade my car, but do plan to go to placed where I will be off grid.
I am a little concerned about reports of the Touring version dragging its rear on kerbs etc. Should this be a concern on a 14 footer.

Question is, what are the thoughts around towing the Outback with the Commodore leaving me a perceived payload of only about 60kg in the car?

What are the thoughts around the better resale of the Outback?

Is any resale benefit worth dragging the extra weight around?

Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this far.

I would appreciate any feedback as I am quite confused.

Cheers,
Ash

 

[MDS69]

Sorry I can't answer all your questions but with regards to touring verse OB have you considered getting a touring model and have Jayco under sling the axle in the factory for additional ground clearance. The J-Tech suspension on the OB weighs heaps.

 

[bigcol]

Hi All,

I have a bit of a drawn out question I am hoping I can get some help with. Hopefully this is the right place for it. Please go easy on me as I am very new to this.

never ever be scared to ask a question you dont know the answer to
never

and we are always gentle - and respect you in the morning as well........................

 

[bigcol]

what @MDS69 said
plus,
when hooked up to your commodore, the rear of the Outback Van will be in the sky

dont forget, that the Outback will only allow you to have 165kgs for loading................ not a great deal if you think about it
(van 1935kgs - towing limit 2100kgs)
water, food, clothing, bedding, odds and sodds

next problem

as a rule of thumb
add your towball weight to your car's load - that will tell you how much you have left for loading the car

Load Limit: 480kg.
Towball Limit: 194/1935kg
286kgs remaining
240 you have allowed for family of 3
46kgs remaining
25kgs for the tow pack
21kgs remaining for fuel (21L basically)


ummmmmmmmmmmm
I think the Outback may not be the better for you

even with the Touring Van - you will be pushed for weight

any thought of upgrading the commondoor for something that can tow.................??????
(just kidding)
although I am surprised at the low Braked towing capacity - 2100kgs - you wouldnt be able to move my 16'

 

[bigcol]

What are the thoughts around the better resale of the Outback?

Is any resale benefit worth dragging the extra weight around?

the Outback has a better resale value - why - because...............meh

I personally dont buy cars / Vans / houses for re-sale value, if your thinking that far down the track of the future, you miss whats happening around you now

I think the Touring will be ok, and when you decide to do more "off the grid" camping, then worry about an Outback and a vehicle that can tow it safely

 

[FiveInAVan]

the Outback has a better resale value - why - because...............meh

I personally dont buy cars / Vans / houses for re-sale value, if your thinking that far down the track of the future, you miss whats happening around you now

I think the Touring will be ok, and when you decide to do more "off the grid" camping, then worry about an Outback and a vehicle that can tow it safely

This is great advice! Buy the van you can tow with the car you have now, especially if you aren't planning on upgrading the car. We had a similar issue with our Prado when looking for a family van. Focus on what you can safely tow. A family loading in a van is much more than you might think. And don't get romanced by what everyone else seems to add to their vans (options, mods etc) as you will most likely find many aren't needed at the end of the day. We kept ours very minimal and our van suits our family of 5 perfectly. Goodluck.

 

[Dobbie]

Totally agree with all of the above advice!

Keep it simple, keep it safe and don't add anything you won't need just because of possible resale effects.

The car must be able to handle the van....if not, it's the wrong van or the wrong car.

That said, when we ordered our expanda we seriously thought about removing the air conditioning as "campers don't need air conditioning" but it was a standard inclusion and included in the total weights so left it in.

Glad we did! But it wasn't an extra but standard.

Good luck with it ....you're being careful and there should be more of it.

:welcome:

 

[ash99]

Thanks for the advice all.

Just to clarify. The ATM weights for the vans I have quoted include the 300kg Load Allowance in the vans so not sailing as close to the wind on load as it sounds on van weight.

The main concern I have is the towball load as some have pointed out.

I have considered selling my car and upgrading. I could move from current car, VF2 SSV Commodore to something like a Navara NP300 STX for no to little cost. But then I would have to drive the Navara every day in the Melbourne traffic to and from work. Not that I drive far.

The 14.44-4 Touring has a Tare of 1440kg with load limit of 300kg so ATM of 1740kg, allowing approx. 10% towball load of 174kg at load limit
The 14.44-4 Outback has a Tare of 1635kg with load limit of 300kg so ATM of 1935kg, allowing approx. 10% towball load of 193kg at load limit.

It irks me a bit that there is no clarity in the brochures and sales material around the tow limit and van weights. I had to calculate the figures for a loaded van. When I purchased the car I knew I wanted a small caravan for family holidays etc but didn't want to drive an SUV every day. Plus I wanted a V8!!!! I naively looked at the towball specs and thought that most of the small vans fit within that and thought I will be right.

Anyway, what this all means is that I think the touring version is the van I will go with. This will be our first van that is a toe in the water into caravanning. If we get bitten by the bug there is nothing stopping me from upgrading further down the track to a more capable vehicle and potentially upgrading to a larger van as the family grows and we want to venture further afield.

I will be off to the dealer today for a bit of a look. Any advice on how much of a discount off the van price I should expect would be good.

Thanks All

Cheers,
Ash

 

[Dobbie]

I'd be expecting about the $1500 mark but, from experience, they're more flexible with extras added..eg price quoted plus options then discounted price.

Suggest you be very clear about options before you sit down and negotiate.

Good luck. Exciting for you!

 

[bigcol]

But then I would have to drive the Navara every day in the Melbourne traffic to and from work. Not that I drive far.

but didn't want to drive an SUV every day. Plus I wanted a V8!!!!

dont say anything bad, but
several of the Manufacturers make V8 SUV's

200 cruiser
Y62 Patrol
Jheep

plus, you would be surprised at just how car like the handling of most modern SUV's are

also the fact that the Hemi Jheep & the Y62 Patrol leave R8 Clubsports in their dust - but..............
@WHHEMI can give you the details of the Jheep he has - my mate has one as well - rocket ship is one word for them................

 

[bigcol]

I will be off to the dealer today for a bit of a look.

how did you go............

see anything interesting?

 

[ash99]

how did you go............

see anything interesting?

Went to the dealer for a bit of a browse.

Had a good look at the 14.44-4 Touring. Seems like this will be the van for us. It is well within the specs of our car and will do what we want it to do.

Had a chat to salesman and he gave me a quote which seems not to bad. More to come on this!!!

We have come home to sit down and go through options etc.

So far they are;
Roof Top Air Con - To free up a cupboard. Actually weighs 2KG less than the standard unit,
Bike Rack on rear
Battery Pack - Not so much for free camping but more for convenience.
Roof Top Solar - Not sure how necessary this is with Battery. May remove this and just get a solar mat if we need it.
Drop Jacks - They just look more substantial that the standard jacks
Fold Down Table - Should be standard really
Roof Top Antenna
External 12v and Antenna Point
2nd Gas tank - My wife wants a heater so figure installing an LPG unit will need extra gas.
Bed End Storm Covers
Control Panel
External Gas Bayonet for BBQ.
Centre Mount Jockey Wheel - Makes it easier to fit WDH

Cheers,
Ash

 

[ash99]

I actually looked at the Jeep Grand Cherokee in Diesel but ruled it out on the woeful reliability reports.

I didn't look at 200 or Patrol at the time.

Like I mentioned at the start, I have towed a rental 14.44-4 Outback with the ATM at 1850kg with the Commodore. It did it pretty easily.

Felt safe and secure on the road and had plenty of go. 304kw/570nm. The engine/trans did not feel stressed in the slightest. Just followed the instructions in the manual which is to "Leave it in Drive and drive to conditions". The manual actually states that a trans cooler is not required. There is no limitation to stay be a certain speed either which some cars have.

Fuel consumption wasn't even that bad. I averaged 18l/100km towing at 100km/h.

I think I will give things a bit of a thought in 12 months though. I like the idea of something like a Cherokee sized vehicle. Don't mind the look of the Navara or the Fortuner.

 

[FiveInAVan]

Shop around now that you have your options sorted. Even if just by phone or email. I dropped $1000 off the price just by doing this without any negotiations. This was just off a quote from 3 other dealers within driving distance to check on price of my van and options. Some quotes from dealers were just RRP and one was way lower. I then went back to my preferred local dealer and they bettered the lowest price.
Sounds like a good setup you have gone with.

 

[Delano]

I actually looked at the Jeep Grand Cherokee in Diesel but ruled it out on the woeful reliability reports.

I didn't look at 200 or Patrol at the time.

Like I mentioned at the start, I have towed a rental 14.44-4 Outback with the ATM at 1850kg with the Commodore. It did it pretty easily.

Felt safe and secure on the road and had plenty of go. 304kw/570nm. The engine/trans did not feel stressed in the slightest. Just followed the instructions in the manual which is to "Leave it in Drive and drive to conditions". The manual actually states that a trans cooler is not required. There is no limitation to stay be a certain speed either which some cars have.

Fuel consumption wasn't even that bad. I averaged 18l/100km towing at 100km/h.

I think I will give things a bit of a thought in 12 months though. I like the idea of something like a Cherokee sized vehicle. Don't mind the look of the Navara or the Fortuner.

I'd have a look at the Jeep Grand Cherokke diesel if i were you.
We bought one earlier this year.
it pulls our 16-49-4 like it's not even there, we towed it to Townsville and back
Averaging 13-14 l/100.
And if you listen to everyone else you wouldn't even have bought a Commodore ...(rear main seal -negative camber in rear end ).....

Just my 2 bobs worth!!!

 

[Dobbie]

Went to the dealer for a bit of a browse.

Had a good look at the 14.44-4 Touring. Seems like this will be the van for us. It is well within the specs of our car and will do what we want it to do.

Had a chat to salesman and he gave me a quote which seems not to bad. More to come on this!!!

We have come home to sit down and go through options etc.

So far they are;
Roof Top Air Con - To free up a cupboard. Actually weighs 2KG less than the standard unit,
Bike Rack on rear
Battery Pack - Not so much for free camping but more for convenience.
Roof Top Solar - Not sure how necessary this is with Battery. May remove this and just get a solar mat if we need it.
Drop Jacks - They just look more substantial that the standard jacks
Fold Down Table - Should be standard really
Roof Top Antenna
External 12v and Antenna Point
2nd Gas tank - My wife wants a heater so figure installing an LPG unit will need extra gas.
Bed End Storm Covers
Control Panel
External Gas Bayonet for BBQ.
Centre Mount Jockey Wheel - Makes it easier to fit WDH

Cheers,
Ash

Definately recommend the ESC.

Makes a real difference to handling and safety.

 

[WHHEMI]

I've been a Jeep owner since 07, and have found most negative comment's regarding Jeeps come from people that have never owned one, we started with a 07 JK wrangler crd auto and now have a 06 WH grand cherokee with a 5.7 hemi, love the comfort and sound as well as the easy towing, it's also no dearer to run than the wrangler was.

 

[Delano]

Thanks for the advice all.

Just to clarify. The ATM weights for the vans I have quoted include the 300kg Load Allowance in the vans so not sailing as close to the wind on load as it sounds on van weight.

The main concern I have is the towball load as some have pointed out.

I have considered selling my car and upgrading. I could move from current car, VF2 SSV Commodore to something like a Navara NP300 STX for no to little cost. But then I would have to drive the Navara every day in the Melbourne traffic to and from work. Not that I drive far.

The 14.44-4 Touring has a Tare of 1440kg with load limit of 300kg so ATM of 1740kg, allowing approx. 10% towball load of 174kg at load limit
The 14.44-4 Outback has a Tare of 1635kg with load limit of 300kg so ATM of 1935kg, allowing approx. 10% towball load of 193kg at load limit.

It irks me a bit that there is no clarity in the brochures and sales material around the tow limit and van weights. I had to calculate the figures for a loaded van. When I purchased the car I knew I wanted a small caravan for family holidays etc but didn't want to drive an SUV every day. Plus I wanted a V8!!!! I naively looked at the towball specs and thought that most of the small vans fit within that and thought I will be right.

Anyway, what this all means is that I think the touring version is the van I will go with. This will be our first van that is a toe in the water into caravanning. If we get bitten by the bug there is nothing stopping me from upgrading further down the track to a more capable vehicle and potentially upgrading to a larger van as the family grows and we want to venture further afield.

I will be off to the dealer today for a bit of a look. Any advice on how much of a discount off the van
price I should expect would be good.

Thanks All

Cheers,
Ash[/QUOTE

 

[Delano]

I'd look at adding the Hot Water service and outdoor shower.
Very handy for washing sandy kids off
Or free camping .

We weren't gonna get the hot water ....
So glad I did , makes it so much easier when I wash the dishes......

 

[ash99]

I'd look at adding the Hot Water service and outdoor shower.
Very handy for washing sandy kids off
Or free camping .

We weren't gonna get the hot water ....
So glad I did , makes it so much easier when I wash the dishes......

Interesting what you say about the hot water.

We were just thinking of using a portable hot water system, eg Joolca.

I like the fact that the portable system can draw from jerry can and not from the main tank.